TAG 40mm launchable grenades and more available for international players

[jammie654]

I'm a Marshall and i would be very reluctant to allows these in a game tbh, Thats more down to the lack of common sense from some airsofters though LOL

[blobface]

Any thoughts on how you would integrate powder shells into a game? 

 

Mainly for the milsim market I should imagine, for vehicles / firing into buildings through windows, or even fired at objectives to mark it as destroyed, each squad would probably only have one grenadier with a m203 / m320 (m32 might be a little expensive with these £4 a pop rounds.. )

 

People would probably act a bit stupid with them on normal day skirmish, just the other month when I was at serial 40, some guy stuck his grenade launcher around a corner and blind fired it one meter away into my chest, thankfully there were enough teammates who saw it to back me up enough for the guy to admit his idiocy, wouldn't have wanted a powder round to the face at that range I'm sure. 

[jammie654]

Thats exactly why i wouldn't be keen on them, You do get some right numpties in this game!

[blobface]

Hence, for the right type of games, these will be absolutely incredible, for others, it might not end well. 

[Stuey]

How bad would it be if you caught one in the chest? What kind of energy are we talking here?

 

Edit: based on Gordo's numbers, 25-35 joules? That's not insignificant I guess 

[blobface]

Won't be that bad at all in terms of pain, but powder round would mean you'd be covered in blue stuff, and if it's in your face, even with mesh mask you'd consume a fair bit, wouldn't hurt anyone I'm quite sure, but you might them off a lot. 

[PMO Gordo]

How bad would it be if you caught one in the chest? What kind of energy are we talking here?

 

Edit: based on Gordo's numbers, 25-35 joules? That's not insignificant I guess 

 

As I kept saying, don't just look at the kinetic energy by itself, we need to look at the blunt trauma potentials. In non-lethal weaponry communities, indentation on ballistic clay is usually used as indicator of blunt trauma potentials. Setting up ballistic clay tests is a quite expensive and tedious job, but the results can be estimated based on energy density. Lyon DH(1999) suggested that energy density (J/cm^2) is a better way to assess the blunt trauma potentials, and showed the graph below. I inserted the data point of a .25g 6mm plastic BB shot at 400 fps, as well as a 32 g 40mm P.M.O.G. 1.0 shot at 190 fps in the graph.

[Tw1tch]

I think the biggest concern with the powder rounds is powder entering the eye, because obviously you won't be able to remove your eye pro to wash it out (even if its not harmful you'll likely still want to rinse it). Its mentioned as being food colouring or the like so should be fairly safe.

 

I could understand sites and organisers not wanting the TAG shells to be used. But I would like the sites I'd be attending to let me run a demo, and therefore let someone launch one at me to help them make their minds up.

 

There's various things that could cause harm in airsoft to players, high powered rifles, shooting up close, lasers, bfg casings. That's without going into the hazards that always exist.

 

I'd definitely be up for "if you're seen being irresponsible (not necessarily just with the shells themselves but other aspects of play) you can't use it again." It's not a cheap system to invest in so its in the user's best interest to be responsible and safe in its deployment.

 

I like to think these shells have their place and hope to see them become more widespread.

[Stuey]

As I kept saying, don't just look at the kinetic energy by itself, we need to look at the blunt trauma potentials. In non-lethal weaponry communities, indentation on ballistic clay is usually used as indicator of blunt trauma potentials. Setting up ballistic clay tests is a quite expensive and tedious job, but the results can be estimated based on energy density. Lyon DH(1999) suggested that energy density (J/cm^2) is a better way to assess the blunt trauma potentials, and showed the graph below. I inserted the data point of a .25g 6mm plastic BB shot at 400 fps, as well as a 32 g 40mm P.M.O.G. 1.0 shot at 190 fps in the graph.

 

I did think that the energy per area would probably be less than a normal BB shot, didn't bother calculating it though. That's reassuring.

 

Overall I don't see it as much different to lobbing a thunderflash, I'd love to shoot and be shot at with these things! I've been mortared before, at a Stirling game, which was pretty exciting.

[Roland1014]

Yes please! Think what these would be like in 60mm!

[Mike 8-{>]

For it to be legal to sell a pyrotechnic device in the UK there are a few hoops to jump through. First, as people have been finding with Electrical equipment (i.e. AEGs) pyrotechnic articles need to be CE marked to comply with POMSTER (Placing on the Market and Supervision of Transfers of Explosives Regulations 1993*) http://www.hse.gov.uk/explosives/ce-marking/ CE approval has to be done by a European Notified Body, The Health and Safety Laboratory, Buxton, in the UK. Testing doesn't have to be done in the UK as long as the pyrotechnic article gets CE marked in the EU it is OK. After that a Pyrotechnic article has to be classified and authorised by the HSE. Just because something has been CE marked by someone in Europe still doesn't mean you could legally buy it in the UK. Classifying and Authorising is not cheap. I have spoken at the British Shooting Show last year to one of the guys from Enola Gaye about this issue as it pertains to their products and I believe my understanding on this is correct. It was certainly true for armature / hobby rocket motors, which I used to be involved with, when someone wanted to buy a new design of motor that hadn't previously been imported in to the UK. Getting a product, and you have to do it for every variant there is no blanket catch all, CE marked is not cheap and usually has to be arranged by the manufacturer. Getting a product classified and authorised by the HSE is not cheap either and again has to be done for every product. It involves destructive testing of large quantities of packaged products as part of the testing is to determine if the shipping materials / packaging meet the standards. Successful Classification and Authorisation sees the product granted a UN number . The UN number determines the licensing, if any, requirements and the requirements for possession / selling / moving the product. For example it may need an explosives licence or may require a user to have an RCA (Recipient Competent Authority) document to be able to move it around.

 

If the product is not CE marked and you cannot demonstrate that it has a valid HSE Classified and Authorised UN number which is in a range that means you don't need paperwork to possess it or move it then you may well be committing an offence under the terms of POMSTER and MSER (Manufacture and Storage of Explosives Regulations) If you look on any UK sold pyro, TLSfX or Enola Gaye, you should see a CE mark and a UN no.

 

As Russia isn't part of the EU any classification or certification from a Russian body wont be recognised in the UK, same as US BATF (or other US body) classification isn't recognised in the EU. The pyrotechnic versions will still need to be classified and authorised and have a CE mark. I dont believe Law Enforcement or the military get any special dispensation on this and I doubt Airsoft World will as they are civillian and they must be getting them in to the country somehow which means for them to get them they ought to be CE and C&A.

 

Not a lawyer just had to read all the regs for getting rocket motors and other pyrotechnic articles.

 

*POMSTER was enacted in 1993 but manufacturers and retailers were given 10 years before it was enforced which happened in 2003 and caught a lot of people out.

[Tw1tch]

So, looking at Airsoft World's site they've removed the clause about only supplying the pyro rounds to armed forces and law enforcement, unless I'm being blind?

Pleasepleaseplease.

[blobface]

I may or may not have already ordered some a few days ago, I purposely kept it quiet so the stock doesn't get swept. 

 

:D

 

Anyway, it got me thinking.... could start one of my never completed projects, Just imagine a projectile with a few basic components... an impact safe shell in case of accidents, a cree 500 lumen LED diode... two 3v coin batteries.... a parachute... AIRSOFT SAFE FLARE! 

[DrAlexanderTobacco]

Are the smoke rounds included with Pyro? (I guess so) - Those seemed like they'd be really useful.

[blobface]

They will be but it's currently under development / production. They promised an April release back in Feb iirc, but you know, time works different in the airsoft world. 

[Tw1tch]

I may or may not have already ordered some a few days ago, I purposely kept it quiet so the stock doesn't get swept. 

 

:D

 

Anyway, it got me thinking.... could start one of my never completed projects, Just imagine a projectile with a few basic components... an impact safe shell in case of accidents, a cree 500 lumen LED diode... two 3v coin batteries.... a parachute... AIRSOFT SAFE FLARE! 

 

Well hopefully they'll take to keeping the levels stocked. I definitely see myself buying a fair few, especially when smokes are released.

[Number5]

Just order direct from airsoft pyrotechnics. Cheaper. No problem. These are great!

[blobface]

Just order direct from airsoft pyrotechnics. Cheaper. No problem. These are great!

 

I'd do that from now on since AW is stocking them, but beforehand I didnt' want to risk it just in case they are illegal. 

[Tw1tch]

I'd still be cautious about importing them myself and the authorities taking an interest.

 

Also cost price might be cheaper but I'm sure HMRC would like some money.

[Skarclaw]

I really, really, really want this to be fine - but I think a clause being taken off a website means *fruitcage* all legally

[Tw1tch]

Well they've also added the impact pyro rounds...

 

Interesting.

[blobface]

? Skarclaw

 

From my understanding ASW went through HSE to change the status from it being only available to LE/Military to be available to everyone, while that might not say it's technically legal / illegal, I'm tempted to assume ASW did the work to cover their backs..

[hitmanNo2]

 

This is an interesting turn of events.

[FireKnife]

? Skarclaw

 

From my understanding ASW went through HSE to change the status from it being only available to LE/Military to be available to everyone, while that might not say it's technically legal / illegal, I'm tempted to assume ASW did the work to cover their backs..

 

I can ask in the shop if you really need to know as they don't seem to respond to emails (at least not the last two I have sent).

 

It is after all 5 miles away from me.

 

They are letting people use them at The Fort but I am not sure how well that has gone down and people are not really using them more so than typical smoke and thermobaric pyros.

 

'FireKnife'

[Stuey]

 

This is an interesting turn of events.

 

edit: very slow...