TAG 40mm launchable grenades and more available for international players

[Tw1tch]

Where are they listed on fire support ?

 

They are $70 for 10, shipping = $30 10 = $100, just under £8 a shot thats a bit expensive ! 

 

For Milsim games though the value added is quite significant, sure loading a GLM up with them would be daft but for the occasional use where you need a bit more "oomph" I can see them being handy. Especially if they start selling the smokes...

[Taragon]

some of the standard 'pyro-based' smokes arn't the lightest itmes... regardless what the law actually states. Launching something with that much weight out of an M203 or mortar tube could have a serious impact (if it hits someone directly).

[Lancaster]

(if it hits someone directly).

happened already with me. not letal but one nice punch

[ninja master of coffee]

I can't find them on fire support, are they in a weird place on their website? Nothing comes up if you search TAG, also, nothing in either their PYROTECHNICS! section or their grenade launcher section (I can't reasonably think where else they'd be without a specific section of their own). They look really interesting and I'm sure they'd add a lot to a milsim or filmsim game.

[Griff762]

Last I saw them they were under ICS grenade

[Mike 8-{>]

Before airsoft I flew rockets. In the UK this is heavily regulated as you are playing witg substantial quantities of powerful propellants. The Control Of Explosives Regulations (COER) and Placing On the Market, Storage and Transfer of Explosives Regulations (POMSTER) http://www.hse.gov.uk/explosives/ce-marking/ covers what you can and can't buy, posess/keep for explosvive and pyrotechnic articles in the UK. First off it *MUST* be CE marked. This is not a cheap process and has to be undertaken for each individual pyrotechnic artical individually. This is not cheap and is not quick having followed the process for various rocket motors as they went through the process. The items have to be tested by an EU designated body. Once approved and, in the UK, Classified and Authorised (C&A), they can then be sold. Who can buy them depends on what the HSE or other approved body designates the items as. This is identified by a UN reference number which defines their international classification. Some things you can buy without any special requirements other you need an explosives licence for or can only posess in limited quantities. Some you can posses but cannot move without other documentation (Recipent Competent Authority document (RCA)). Now I know from talking to UK pyro suppliers at shows that getting their products to meet the stringent requirments of CE marking to allow us Joe Public types to buy them takes them many months to get approved and costs a fortune. So I would be very interested to know the details of this products UN classification number and it's CE marking status.

 

Now as to lobbing things at people that go bang. It is as far as I am aware not allowed. It was forbidden to fit any kind of explosive charge to one of our rockets excepting very small charges to seperate parts of the airframe to aid safe recovery of the rocket. One of the things that prevented this is the 1875 Explosive Act and subsequent amendments and the more recent Act the name of which temporarily escapes me. Anyway the gist of it is if you use any explosive or pyrotechnic device for any purpose other than what it was manufactued for or modify it in any way, shape or form it is considered an "Act of manufacture" under the terms of the Act and therefore illegal. This would cover such things as using a pyro bang (thermonaric, thunderflash or similar) as a lifting charge for another device, be it a smoke or another bang would be an act of manufacture. Why? Because the bang is not designed, Classified & Authorised or CE marked as a lifting charge. It is a bang and can only be used in the manner deacribed in it's directions. If you make a mortar and use a thuderflash to lob a smoke grenade in the UK it is my understanding that you would be breaking the law.

 

 

I have to say I think it unlikely that a device designed lob an exploding projectile in any direction other than vertically as part of a firework with a 25m safe distance requirement would get approved for use in the same catagory as thunderflashes and other pyro devices airsofters would be familiar with.

 

 

I would be very interested to know more about this device and how it is on sale in the UK.

[hitmanNo2]

It's basically a rifled M203 shell.  That can potentially fire the fun rounds that we are not allowed.  We are limited to the 'training' or marking rounds so it's perfectly fine to sell in the UK.

[PMO Gordo]

Mike, great job on showing us the intricacy of UK laws.

 

The projectiles sold on Fire Support are the ones without pyro. They discharge their content through kinetic impact.

http://www.fire-support.co.uk/product/ics-russian-grenade-package

http://www.fire-support.co.uk/product/ics-russian-grenade-supply-package

 

The pyro ones sold at Russia are unlikely to go past UK custom.

[Mike 8-{>]

Wouldn't bother asking the Police mate at best they won't have a clue at worst they could turn up somewhere and start nicking people under the firearms act and let the CPO sort it out.

 

At the end of the day these are projectiles launched from a rifled barrel, reckon that makes em a firearm, regardless of whether its a marker or bang. As for launching regular flashbangs out of a 203 much as i'd love to I reckon this king of thing is gonna lead to un wanted attention from the powers that be.

Have to agree. As you say asking will attract attention. Also it isnt the police but the Health and Safety Executive you would need to talk to. You would need to know the UN classification of the product to find out who can posses/use it.

 

The other thing to bear in mind is if it uses a green gas / CO2 propellant charge to lob it out of the barrel and it is as big and heavy as it appears to be I suspect it wont get very far with a 1 Joule power limit. The various M203 BB shower grenades are ok as the individual BBs are almost certainly less than 1J.

[Mike 8-{>]

Mike, great job on showing us the intricacy of UK laws.

 

The projectiles sold on Fire Support are the ones without pyro. They discharge their content through kinetic impact.

http://www.fire-support.co.uk/product/ics-russian-grenade-package

http://www.fire-support.co.uk/product/ics-russian-grenade-supply-package

 

The pyro ones sold at Russia are unlikely to go past UK custom.

 

Thanks and ahhhhhhh that makes more sense. Non pyro projectiles aren't going to be a problem. The pyro ones shouldn't make it to anywhere in the EU or anywhere involving shipping across borders without a UN number and, without a CE mark, cannot be placed on the market anywhere in the EU. (That said from experience not everyone in the EU plays by the EUs rules).

[Stuey]

Thanks for the info mike...no one suggested using a pyro to launch another pyro, that's definitely illegal!

 

TLSFx mortar rounds are dual charge devices, they have one charge which goes off a few seconds after lighting the fuse which propels the second charge through the air, detonating after a further short delay. They are selling these things apparently without issues so it must be fine?

 

I'm also not sure where the line would be drawn between thrown pyros - which are fine - and pyros launched from a device, the end result is pretty similar. The difference being the launched one can potentially go farther and may initially be travelling faster (though it will slow down pretty quickly).

 

I'm fairly sure impact detonation is a no-no, but TAG 'nades are on a timed fuse like the TLSFx mortar pyros. - in fact I can't see much difference between the two except that the TAG rounds are spin-stabilised, which might not be okay. Can't remember though.

 

If that was the issue, a smooth bore version would probably be fine (but less accurate presumably).

[ninja master of coffee]

I always thought it was fin stabilized pyrotechnics that were the problem rather than generally spin stabilized ones (why fire work rockets have a stick and model rockets can have fins). It'd be interesting to know exactly, if spin stabalization is ok then maybe we will still see the pyro ones in the EU? I did think, if the TSFLX mortar rounds are ok I'm not sure why these wouldn't be but then the law is rather complex and at times very specific.

[ninja master of coffee]

Oops, double post.

[Stuey]

Fin stabilisation is a definite no-no (that plus impact detonation = literally a mortar shell lol), like I say I can't remember for the life of me whether spin is okay. It might be more general than that, projectiles that actively try to be stabilised (so that covers spinning and fins) not being allowed rings a bell, hence the TLSFx ones that just tumble through the air.

 

Edit: found it, Firearms Act 1968. Forbids

 

 

any rocket launcher, or any mortar, for projecting a stabilised missile, other than a launcher or mortar designed for line-throwing or pyrotechnic purposes or as signalling apparatus

 

so any form of stabilisation isn't allowed unless we could somehow argue that they're for pyrotechnic purposes. Which they sort of are, but I'm guessing that argument doesn't hold given the TLSFx design and the general lack of mortars on the UK market.

 

The Act also forbids

 

 

any cartridge with a bullet designed to explode on or immediately before impact

 

so no impact detonation and no airbursts (lol).

 

Guess that settles it, as I supposed earlier a smooth bore version might be okay?

[ninja master of coffee]

You could well be right on that score, given the use of the TSFLX mortars I wonder how long till someone makes a non-rifled pyro 40mm round? Unless of course the self arming thing is an issue too...

[PMO Gordo]

Fin stabilisation is a definite no-no (that plus impact detonation = literally a mortar shell lol), like I say I can't remember for the life of me whether spin is okay. It might be more general than that, projectiles that actively try to be stabilised (so that covers spinning and fins) not being allowed rings a bell, hence the TLSFx ones that just tumble through the air.

 

Could some one post the actual language used in terms of legality of projectile stabilization in UK? If stabilization is a problem, then you can say Airsoft guns are illegal, too! They use backward spin from hopup to stabilize the bbs.

 

You don't need spinning or fins to stabilize a projectile. The airgun pellets use mostly forward-placed center of mass to achieve stabilization, although rifling in the barrel also helps. I'm designing my PMOG 2.0 based on this principle, and I'll be getting my first prototype from Shapeway in the few days!

[LordElpus]

so any form of stabilisation isn't allowed unless we could somehow argue that they're for pyrotechnic purposes. Which they sort of are, but I'm guessing that argument doesn't hold given the TLSFx design and the general lack of mortars on the UK market.

 

It may be possible to argue on the pyrotechnic front if it was a airsoft site that was buying them and using them for special effect purposes. But it's still damn iffy.

[Stuey]

Could some one post the actual language used in terms of legality of projectile stabilization in UK? If stabilization is a problem, then you can say Airsoft guns are illegal, too! They use backward spin from hopup to stabilize the bbs.

 

You don't need spinning or fins to stabilize a projectile. The airgun pellets use mostly forward-placed center of mass to achieve stabilization, although rifling in the barrel also helps. I'm designing my PMOG 2.0 based on this principle, and I'll be getting my first prototype from Shapeway in the few days!

 

I did in my last post

 

 

any rocket launcher, or any mortar, for projecting a stabilised missile, other than a launcher or mortar designed for line-throwing or pyrotechnic purposes or as signalling apparatus

 

Airsoft guns don't qualify as rocket launchers or mortars. Airguns with rifled barrels are okay for the same reason.

 

Yes the forward centre of mass is what I immediately thought of, not sure the UK market is big enough to warrant TAG changing their design a bit for us though. For this reason I've been following your PMOG fairly closely!

 

 

It may be possible to argue on the pyrotechnic front if it was a airsoft site that was buying them and using them for special effect purposes. But it's still damn iffy.

 

Yeah exactly, with stuff that's this close in function to actual military stuff I think erring one the side of caution is the best plan.

[Mike 8-{>]

For reference PMO Gordo:-

 

Firearms Act 1968 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/27

Firearms Act Amedment 1988 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/45/contents

Firearms Act Amendment 1997 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1997/5/contents

 

Explosives Act 1875 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Vict/38-39/17/section/80

 

Manufacture and Storage of Explosives Regulations http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Vict/38-39/17/section/80

 

UK Health and Safety Executive Explosives Guidance http://www.hse.gov.uk/explosives/index.htm

 

Violent Crime Reduction Act http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/38/contents

 

Heading briefly off topic.... For what it is worth, as far as rockets are concerned, you can fly them but only vertically as "model" rockets  and you pretty much can only do it if they are launched with a recovery system (parachute) so they don't come in ballisticly i.e. things like this which happened to a friends rocket really shouldn't happen

 

.

 

Stabilisation systems which are used include sticks ( as found on fireworks aka Congreve rocket as referenced to in the "rockets red glare" in the American national anthem)  fins (which can be used to impart spin but at the cost of ultimate max altitude) or aerodynamic shapes which are passively stable. They fall under the remit of the Civil Aviation Authority and the Air Navigation Order in the UK.

 

Back on topic...... Obviously the Firearms Act includes exclusions, like not allowing fin stabilised projectiles etc. on barrel / mortar launched devices, as mentioned by Stuey.

 

I also remember looking in to this back when I first got in to paintball in the 80's and seem to remember there is something about smooth bore weapons which allowed paintball markers to be ok and is probably what allows airsoft weapons as they are smooth bore. Also I think that the spin stabilisation probably means spin around the axis of travel, as imparted by rifling or fins rather than perpendicular as in backspin imparted by a hop unit. In the real world backspin doesn't feature greatly, as far as I am aware, in real weapons as it isn't the best way to do it (dambusting devices excepted )

[PMO Gordo]

For reference PMO Gordo:-

 

Thanks for the reference.

 

 

 

 

Heading briefly off topic.... For what it is worth, as far as rockets are concerned, you can fly them but only vertically as "model" rockets  and you pretty much can only do it if they are launched with a recovery system (parachute) so they don't come in ballisticly i.e. things like this which happened to a friends rocket really shouldn't happen

 

It looked like a V2 rocket shelling London!

 

I also remember looking in to this back when I first got in to paintball in the 80's and seem to remember there is something about smooth bore weapons which allowed paintball markers to be ok and is probably what allows airsoft weapons as they are smooth bore. Also I think that the spin stabilisation probably means spin around the axis of travel, as imparted by rifling or fins rather than perpendicular as in backspin imparted by a hop unit. In the real world backspin doesn't feature greatly, as far as I am aware, in real weapons as it isn't the best way to do it (dambusting devices excepted )

 

Here's a proof of backspin projectiles are safe (including the dam-buster bombs) as demonstrated by the German soldier!

[PMO Gordo]

Just found out it's 70th anniversary of Operation Chatise (dam raids) this year. Lancaster heavy bomber - what a beatutiful plane!

[Lancaster]

a long video contains 4 kills with one shot using TAG grenade - on 17:20

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqX1HUIUG2s

[JCheeseright]

not gonna lie, that thing looks awesome.  

[Viking]

They are finally ... A quick pic with my custom M72 LAW launcher. ( Real .. modified for Airsoft ). Will try out this weekend and post an update.

[PMO Gordo]

They are finally ... A quick pic with my custom M72 LAW launcher. ( Real .. modified for Airsoft ). Will try out this weekend and post an update.

 

Cool! You even got the pyro ones past the US custom!

 

If you are planning to go to OP Irene and use the marker (blue) round, please follow OP Irene's chief of staff's instruction below:

"...Appreciate all the detail on this, nice work. Safety does not appear to be an issue, however, as this is a MARKING round....it would need to be approved by the site/facility staff, as well as the vehicle owners/drivers.

 

I invite you to bring these rounds with you on the condition that our staff is allowed a test, and upon approval of the facility staff and vehicle owners, it would be allowed. All 3 entities must approve however for them to be good to go for use in this event. Those tests/approvals will have to be on site, on the Friday before the event. When you check in, have them call me, and we'll go from there."