Airsoft Mentality

[jal3]

I'm about as non-milsim as you can get and I totally oppose the notion of hard competition and that winning is everything in airsoft.

 

I'm competitive about as far as Team A are on one team while I'm on Team B and my job is to hit them and not be hit, but that's the end of it. Everything thereon is about having fun, playing like a cartoon gun wielding hero, taking your deaths in cinematic ways, congratualing people on solid kills and being a good sportsman.

 

True competition as per legitimate sports like football and hockey falls apart completely in airsoft as it is so unbelieveably fall-over easy to cheat and as soon as a motivation to win outstrips the desire to have fun. that's when you get your Tommy Teflons refusing to take any hits they didn't specifically see the origin of and getting really really angry at being shot, then taking it personally as a failure of skill and getting all hissy and resentful about it.

 

Competition brings about the absolute worst in airsoft. We don't need it.

 

I didn't say it was everything.

I just said, once you become good, it's hard to have fun without a proper challenge.

 

I absolutely agree that airsoft is not a "legitimate sport"/true competition, and that it would fall apart in such a situation. Nobody wants to end with something that looks like how they play in the phillipines (Sorry RC, on SOME island(s) in the phillipines ).

That doesn't mean that competition is bad. It can work to a certain degree, fostering innovation in technology and skills.

[AllanOne]

Competition brings about the absolute worst in airsoft. We don't need it.

 

Competition in Airsoft is such a joke, at least they are easy to spot in their paintball clothes, fullfaces and hicaps that gets emptied in 10 sec's or less.

[FireKnife]

I just said, once you become good, it's hard to have fun without a proper challenge.

 

Define 'good'?

 

Personally I would say I have experience in airsoft and that using what I have learned I could be considered 'good' at the game but I don't think that removes any form of challenge from it whatsoever. I still enjoy myself thoroughly and have played all manner of players without ever feeling that any challenge is 'lacking' as it were. In fact I much prefer to play many a different player as both new and veteran players will suprise you sometimes by switiching up tactics and making it a fun experience.

 

I think you just belong to a mindset that really isn't that popular here in the UK in airsoft. Many people play for fun seeing as there is no real competitive element in the average game. Sure we have competitions but even then the emphasis is more on fun than it is on winning anything spectacular. I know it is going to be different the world over but here we have fun without the stigma of competition. Sure we have those that are determined to win and still keep to the letter of the rules but for every one player you get like that you get at least ten that just want to have safe fun with replicas.

 

'FireKnife'

[Habakure]

I like fun, it's joyous. I've called 'hit' just to have a chat with a team mate (who was hit 'for real'). I do have a competitive side, but I generally keep it locked up and hidden. As it's a beast. I mean *fruitcage* evil. Evil.

[renegadecow]

Sorry RC, on SOME island(s) in the phillipines

No need to apologize. I'm just happy these guys are over 1,400km away from where I play.

 

Competitiveness in challenging one's own limits is fine. That's the very reason why I skirmish with single action revolvers. Now, competition, that's all about winning, not getting better (getting better is just one of the ways to win) and also breeds mentalities like cheating if you can get away with it.

[Cannonfodder80]

While I play for fun I feel Jal may have been misunderstood as I'm sure we have all noticed that in a game where you have been made to work throughout the whole game, win or loose, the *suitcase* eating grin on your face is a bit bigger at the end than games that were a cake walk.

 

If you're finding the guys you regularly play with aren't enough of a challenge why not try mixing things up by trying something different to usual such as carrying a pistol or shotgun as a primary or limiting the number of mags you carry

[FireKnife]

While I play for fun I feel Jal may have been misunderstood as I'm sure we have all noticed that in a game where you have been made to work throughout the whole game, win or loose, the *suitcase* eating grin on your face is a bit bigger at the end than games that were a cake walk.

 

If you're finding the guys you regularly play with aren't enough of a challenge why not try mixing things up by trying something different to usual such as carrying a pistol or shotgun as a primary or limiting the number of mags you carry

 

This would be an ideal solution but then sadly it leads to much 'oh but I am good with this gun / only have this one / don't see why I should change, they should' kind of attitudes (speaking from experience).

 

However I personally find that both cake walks and hard slogs are fun, it is just what you make of it. To some life is enriched by accomplishment of a task, either proving to themselves or others that they can succed and 'winning' in airsoft is just that to them. Then again others like me look at the score board and think 'oh well someone is doing well, now off to enjoy myself' and have a laugh. Neither of us are right or wrong it is just subjective to how we play.

 

Personally I would rather have a game where all of the players are playing to story or idea and it is not down to winning or losing more a general co-operation to make a strong narrative. Some people might see this and think I am mad and others will say good idea.

 

I just don't think airsoft is down to the skill of the players you play with and how geared up they are to win but how geared up they are to make others enjoy the experience too. I find there is a fine line between playing to win and playing to win while giving everyone a fair chance. To be honest this is never going to be a subject that we can all agree on but rather one where we all have to say 'hi, my name is <insert> and I prefer to have fun / play to win / like a balance / think you all suck and I ROCK!!!!' etc.

 

'FireKnife'

[Cannonfodder80]

Don't get me wrong, the result of the game isn't important to me but how hard it's been to get the objectives (or attempt to get, some of my most enjoyable games have been when getting an *albartroth* kicking)

[FireKnife]

I get that, I just think that like many things this is just one of those things where you will always get people firmly on both sides trying to make their case to people that just don't like it .

 

However the article linked to in the OP is just an example of where someone has put something based solely on personal experience and assumed that is what everything is like without taking the time to play outside there typical local social atmosphere.

 

For example I prefer the way games were played when I was in the South West than up here but that is just as it is a different mindset up here. We all have preferences but so many people just seem to assume theirs are always right (don't mean you Cannonfodder) and don't look at others opinions first. I think it is great that people play to compete but for me competition is nothing, the idea of winning over the other team does little for me. The idea of ding something comical and having it pay off is what I look for .

 

That reminds me though need to assemble my other loadout idea and get to a game either this weekend coming or next and see how it goes. It will be fun and I no doubt will get moaned at by someone as I am not playing 'their way' but damn it I am going to have fun.

 

'FireKnife'

[Habakure]

I find, if the terrain is hard to traverse then the game is more enjoyable. But that's more woodland. Cqb is a lot more fun, if it is completely indoors with no woodland play. Again, that is just me.

[Skarclaw]

airsoft isn't a suitable activity for competition - for obvious reasons. 

 

Having said that part of "the joy of" airsoft is that it can be what you make of it. I'm partial to a bit of "milsim" but sometimes I think that the line is blurred. For example here is a quote from a guide on using a support gun in airsoft.  Not knocking the author - there is a lot of good, relevant information in there but there is also quite a lot which is clearly trying to appropriate "real" stuff into airsoft, such as this bit of madness;

 

"In some situations, notionally destroying your machinegun is your only option. If your gun goes down hard and cannot be fixed in the field, there is no point in carrying around a giant deadweight. Your best bet is to remove the barrel and stow it on your person. If your weapon doesn’t have a quick change barrel, remove the box magazine instead. If you’re using something like an RPK or MG36, which both use common magazines and do not have quick change barrels, pull the fuse out of the wiring harness instead."

 

 

I dunno. tbh I'm suprised that "paintsofters" turn up to milsims and vice versa but apparently it happens...

 

I guess in short the attitude should be - follow the rules & don't be a *rickroll*

 

 edit: slightly off topic (please pm) but from my cursory glances from various milsim events it seems like the set up is (roughly) US camo patterns vs headscarf clad insurgents. Anybody know of events that will permit I dunno, us camo vs civvies/russian/etc? or basically western kit v everything else? thanks

 

 

[Forti]

That guide is definitely written by someone for whom money is no object whatsoever. The type who carries a spare Inokatsu M60 in their car just in case. And when it gets to the point where it's those types of people playing in a serious competitive way against each other, it does kind of become about who can dump the most dosh into a match. Which... when you think about it, is kind of like 'pro' paintball. Which, no thanks. I don't agree with competitions in airsoft one bit, I generally don't even care who wins or loses a game on a skirmish day as long as everyone had a good time, but I appreciate there are people who long for tournaments and prizes and so on. I just genuinely don't think it would work. 

 

As far as I can tell, a lot of current Milsim events are the standard multicam western dudes versus borderline racist stereotype middle eastern dudes, but I don't think I'd go to one as the fact that it's emulating a current conflict makes me a little uncomfortable. I'd like to go to one someday so I can say I tried it but maybe a little less of a ripped from the headlines scenario. There are a couple of US versus Russian games in America that look huge and fun but... well, they're the other side of the ocean.

[Azubi]

There are a couple of US versus Russian games in America that look huge and fun but... well, they're the other side of the ocean.

It's not as far or as expensive as you may initially think. I've taken guns and all of my kit over with little in the way of issues and flights aren't that bad either.

 

I'd be booked in for East Wind VII in March if I wasn't buying a house in March. Next year is an almost dead cert though for me going again and I have been twice now.

[Mike2514]

I am not a supporter of Milsim.  I am not a fan of hurry up and wait, or the screaming and shouting that comes with it.  That is the toxic part of the overall military culture. 

 

 

That's basically saying nothing really, that there is no objective mindset of approaching a team sport, which I disagree.  Unless airsoft is not seen as a team sport but like singles bandminton, tennis etc.

 

I have yet to try a true Milsim and will give one a go, but what is putting me off is all the videos I see of patrols being carried out and int gathering. Like you say, I just want to spend my entire time fighting the other team and enjoy the whole aspect and skill of hunting other men, to be corny. I think airsoft is what you and your mates make of it, but wouldn't enjoy it if it turned into paintball.

[3vi1-D4n]

I have yet to try a true Milsim and will give one a go, but what is putting me off is all the videos I see of patrols being carried out and int gathering. Like you say, I just want to spend my entire time fighting the other team and enjoy the whole aspect and skill of hunting other men, to be corny. I think airsoft is what you and your mates make of it, but wouldn't enjoy it if it turned into paintball.

 

LOL

 

Today, the Military is about the whole Int gathering and patrols thing.  Recce and fighting patrols are the bread and butter of combat operations. 

 

The process of organisational intelligence is: 

1) Find the problem,

2) Determine he size of the problem

3) Decide if we have the organisational capacity to tackle the problem

4) How to tackle the problem

5) Recording whether the actions chosen

6) Evaluate whether the action is effective against the problem. 

 

Its a purpose driven, objective focused mindset to overcome problems.

 

Recce and fighting patrols are essentially the finding and tackling of the problem (enemy) and are essential to any combat group/organisation, regardless if they are military or not.   The same mindset is then used in team and individual training. 

 

This is the mindset the guy is trying to convey in the original post.  It is the mindset and intelligent process that is required to play airsoft in a team.

 

-------------------------------

 

If you enjoy airsoft as a game of hunting men, then this is a totally different mindset from the military mindset.  If your case, the intelligence is your own and not as an organisation, so you would only enjoy if the game is equally challenging against individuals who have the same mindset, in an encompassing LARP environment.  So a scenario like "Stalker" you would most find enjoyment in.  You would hate paintball scenarios as it would make the satisfaction of each "kill" too cheap.  You would hate the rigid organisational mindsets that accompany team games.

 

Paintball mindset is different yet again.  Most paintballers are like "pain-ballers" (guys who shoot each other until the pain becomes unbearable then they call hit).  These players like being "in the thick of the action" and their measure of success is how forceful/aggressive the assault was.  These players don't like to think about "how" to tackle the problem at hand as ateam, but more how hard and fast they can lay rounds down and get their kills. These are the COD type of players, and the appreciation of skill is how the player is forceful and takes appropriate risks in amongst the action.  These are more the type A extroverted type of personalities.  They would hate the rigidity milsim games, but find Stalker games boring and trivial.

 

-------------------------------

 

One may turn up to a milsim looking game with military teams, but in fact entered into a stalker LARP game.

One may turn up to a stalker looking game with military teams, but in fact entered into a milsim game.

One may turn up to a milsim looking game, but in fact entered into a pain-ball game. (which I did 2 weekends ago)

 

So yeah, airsoft games can be deceptive. 

[Forti]

That is all true. However as someone not in the military, I went to a semi milsim event and spent a full day and a half wandering around in the woods doing absolutely nothing, didn't even get to fire a shot. It was immeasurably boring and a huge waste of money, but each to their own I suppose.

[Mike2514]

LOL

 

Today, the Military is about the whole Int gathering and patrols thing. Recce and fighting patrols are the bread and butter of combat operations.

 

The process of organisational intelligence is:

1) Find the problem,

2) Determine he size of the problem

3) Decide if we have the organisational capacity to tackle the problem

4) How to tackle the problem

5) Recording whether the actions chosen

6) Evaluate whether the action is effective against the problem.

 

Its a purpose driven, objective focused mindset to overcome problems.

 

Recce and fighting patrols are essentially the finding and tackling of the problem (enemy) and are essential to any combat group/organisation, regardless if they are military or not. The same mindset is then used in team and individual training.

 

This is the mindset the guy is trying to convey in the original post. It is the mindset and intelligent process that is required to play airsoft in a team.

 

-------------------------------

 

If you enjoy airsoft as a game of hunting men, then this is a totally different mindset from the military mindset. If your case, the intelligence is your own and not as an organisation, so you would only enjoy if the game is equally challenging against individuals who have the same mindset, in an encompassing LARP environment. So a scenario like "Stalker" you would most find enjoyment in. You would hate paintball scenarios as it would make the satisfaction of each "kill" too cheap. You would hate the rigid organisational mindsets that accompany team games.

 

Paintball mindset is different yet again. Most paintballers are like "pain-ballers" (guys who shoot each other until the pain becomes unbearable then they call hit). These players like being "in the thick of the action" and their measure of success is how forceful/aggressive the assault was. These players don't like to think about "how" to tackle the problem at hand as ateam, but more how hard and fast they can lay rounds down and get their kills. These are the COD type of players, and the appreciation of skill is how the player is forceful and takes appropriate risks in amongst the action. These are more the type A extroverted type of personalities. They would hate the rigidity milsim games, but find Stalker games boring and trivial.

 

-------------------------------

 

One may turn up to a milsim looking game with military teams, but in fact entered into a stalker LARP game.

One may turn up to a stalker looking game with military teams, but in fact entered into a milsim game.

One may turn up to a milsim looking game, but in fact entered into a pain-ball game. (which I did 2 weekends ago)

 

So yeah, airsoft games can be deceptive.

I'm a little confused by your post starting with the LOL. What I was getting at was, having carried out many fighting patrols, recce patrols and CTR's and Close Protection operations in both training and for real, I imagine I would find the whole un-eventful aspect of a true milsim boring. I like the idea of a full milsim without all the int gathering. Real life missions where you're just given your target area, a quick brief, and then launch the attack, from the aspect of a shooter that is is enjoy, but I used to find the patrols and talking to locals etc, on exercise, which is essentially what airsoft is, a pain in the *albartroth* with the whole fake locals etc. Real world is obviously completely different. I will try a milsim, because you never know, I might suddenly enjoy talking to a brummie dressed like an Arab trying to pretend he's an Afghan local etc, but I imagine I will be just waiting, like a kid at Christmas, for the inevitable (I would hope) battle that will come.

[Gigueand]

Most milsim games are basically direct action missions with both sides contending to occupy certain locations, retrieve items and generally destroy the other team. Just take a look at any of the Blacksheep, Lion Claws, Tier 1, etc events that bill themselves as "milsim."

 

That what's most players seem to view as "milsim" at least in the US.

 

Niche events like Berget and Eastwind provide a more immersive environment that places a greater emphasis on things like intelligence gathering and patrolling as opposed to direct action.

 

I think it's been pretty well hashed out that the "milsim experience" exists along a continuum. A 9 day, 24 hr full immersion event like Eastwind can exist alongside something like an Operation Irene as milsim events, it's just that they occupy difference spaces on the milsim continuum.

 

Airsoft, at its heart, is still about running around shoot each other. If you have 4 or 5 days to play then incorporating things like patrolling, intelligence gathering, building OPs and conducting reconnaissance doesn't necessarily detract from having a good shootout or two. If you only have 2 days of 8 hours of play then sitting in an OP or guarding some objective for 6 hours and not actually shooting other guys is a major concession to make.

 

My point is that where a milsim event falls on the "milsim continuum" is a function of the amount of time available as well as the management of player expectations by the event hosts.

[Azubi]

I'm sure we can all agree that different people want different things out of the hobby. In the UK, we're pretty lucky to have most tastes catered for.

 

I remember the first East Wind I went to, I was sat in an LP/OP at 2 in the morning on day three, hadn't poo'd in several days and there was a mega storm raging all around. I was cold, wet and tired and at that moment, I was wondering what the *fruitcage* I was doing there. Skip forward to day 9 and EndEx is called and I was gutted it was ending! I've always joked that I like EW because I like being tired and miserable, but looking back, it's the element you don't normally get at a 'normal' milsim/filmsim/Sunday skirmish that I enjoyed, and making such close friends with those I was with.

 

With that is mind though, I still love normal skirmishes, DA type milsim games, zombie games, role play stalker type games and anything else people can come up with as long as the people playing are a decent bunch.

 

I've never told anyone that a game will be awesome and they will love it and all the stuff to get someone to come to a game with me. I've always outlined the bad bits and the good bits and invited them to come along if they think they will like it. Some people aren't interested in Zombie games, for example. Others don't want to live out of a backpack for the weekend, or travel to America, or only play games to capture a flag, or deal with limited ammo, or deal with hi caps. That's their choice and I respect that.

[3vi1-D4n]

I'm a little confused by your post starting with the LOL. What I was getting at was, having carried out many fighting patrols, recce patrols and CTR's and Close Protection operations in both training and for real, I imagine I would find the whole un-eventful aspect of a true milsim boring. I like the idea of a full milsim without all the int gathering. Real life missions where you're just given your target area, a quick brief, and then launch the attack, from the aspect of a shooter that is is enjoy, but I used to find the patrols and talking to locals etc, on exercise, which is essentially what airsoft is, a pain in the *albartroth* with the whole fake locals etc. Real world is obviously completely different. I will try a milsim, because you never know, I might suddenly enjoy talking to a brummie dressed like an Arab trying to pretend he's an Afghan local etc, but I imagine I will be just waiting, like a kid at Christmas, for the inevitable (I would hope) battle that will come.

 

Haha yeah, I don't like the fake locals or fake tribal leaders.  They seem overacted and tacky perhaps its because they don't have anything at stake in the virtual world.  Real life is more interesting, particularly if the locals are high and have something to hide.

 

 

But yeah perhaps, like differing genres of films, what you and I are looking for/enjoy watching is different in airsoft.   

 

For me I like the int gathering, the planning aspect.  Its having known that the decision made to launch an attack, the teams are given the best fighting chance at achieving the target objective while minimising casualties, rather than a mere game of attrition.  But it goes both ways.  I want to know that the teams (my team, and other teams around me) are also capable of achieving the objective and each member have a basic skill set and will back each other up.  Hence I am in support of the "mindset" as described in the original article, as it is the only way to improve the game from a squad member, squad leader, as a platoon leader etc.

 

Unfortunately it means there is a lot of hurry up and wait, but that is really the only way to have the teams truly appreciate and feel the consequence if things are not considered and planned for. 

 

I realised that there are differing games hence different "mindsets", but as a game planners perspective, I need to know if the game that I have planned is any good and needs improving.  Hence again, that "mindset" is required from the players, because as a game planning I need to know if they care enough about the game plan to follow it, rather than just complain that the game sucked.

 

But of course, if most airsofters are just looking for a pain-ball game in the bush or a hunting game then no active game planners are required, just marshals.  

 

I do like the idea of a shifting milsim continuum, as a function over time.  I can see that working but only in a long event, otherwise it will be like a compromise in direction of the game.  It still requires the organisational intelligence to exist otherwise it will just turn into a 9 day pain-ball game. 

 

 

 

Thats why we have these discussions, as the blurry definitions of airsoft and what people look for, isn't well described.  I do agree, at heart airsoft is about people shooting each other, but shooting is a raw form of communication when words break down and we have to sling pieces of metal/plastic at each other to get our point across.  Its not without meaning.

[steelfallenangel]

Well we do have something like a middle ground between East Wind and Lion Claws. Just look at the Blacksheep milsim series. One day events that last 24 continuius hours without break. It mimics the closed in nature that something like East Wind will give you but still makes it more of direct action like Lion Claws.

[ardrummer292]

*snip*

there is a lot of good, relevant information in there but there is also quite a lot which is clearly trying to appropriate "real" stuff into airsoft, such as this bit of madness;

 

*quote from my AW guide*

*snip*

 

Okay, so that suggestion might be going a bit far. Have I done it in the past? Yes, while at my home field. Would I recommend doing it in any old pickup game with a bunch of guys you don't know or don't trust? Absolutely not. As always, your judgement dictates the best course of action.

 

 

 

That guide is definitely written by someone for whom money is no object whatsoever. The type who carries a spare Inokatsu M60 in their car just in case. And when it gets to the point where it's those types of people playing in a serious competitive way against each other, it does kind of become about who can dump the most dosh into a match.

*snip*

 

I never have been the wealthy type, although one can dream...

 

Do what you like, as that is the idea of this whole airsoft thing.