The evolution of arguments against clones

[Stealthbomber]

ORLY?

 

 

My Dboys shell fell apart in my hands after lightly tapping the receiver pins out.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Let me guess...

You were lightly tapping the pin toward the side that broke an it wasn't supported?

 

Frankly, I think you can chalk this one up to experience and be more careful next time.

I know most AR15 receiver pins are horribly tight the first time you take them out and I reckon this could happen to any brand of metal receiver if you're not careful.

[Mike_West]

That's why I dismiss some brands as cheap tat - among them Bell and DBoys.

[Yeager]

Let me guess...

You were lightly tapping the pin toward the side that broke an it wasn't supported?

 

Frankly, I think you can chalk this one up to experience and be more careful next time.

I know most AR15 receiver pins are horribly tight the first time you take them out and I reckon this could happen to any brand of metal receiver if you're not careful.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I was using an AR-15 rifle rest and a punch small enough to clear the "hole" with room to spare. Both sides of the magazine well were supported, and the pins came out with very little resistance. After I tapped them out the receiver just fell to pieces in my hand.

[neoptolemus]

The argument over clones seems to arise because of two reasons:

 

1) People who don't want to spend money on their AEG's want to validate their choices by arguing the superiority, or at least the competence, of Chinese manufacturers.

 

2) People that own the expensive guns cloned want to make sure their airsoft ego isn't compromised when some n00b shows up on the field with a cheap copy of their gun that looks too similar for their liking.

 

Clones are here to stay as long as airsofters are willing to accept them as reasonable substitutes for quality guns in their games.

[Sledge]

Why is it that people who are fans of clones have so much trouble understanding that some people are genuinely happy to pay more for quality? It's not ego, elitism or racism. It's simply being happier with a quality gun.

 

[Tinkerton]

I remember when UTG MP5's were the new big thing! lots of people bought them, then complained on the forums that they weren't as good as TM or other guns. but, when you really think about it, they were the tip of the iceberg when it comes to clones. It was cheap. It was no frills (apart from teh spare stock) and it performed ok. I think we have UTG MP5's to thank for a lot of the current clones. But none of the other UTG guns or gear, mind. they all look tacky...

[evilliboba]

Why is it that people who are fans of clones have so much trouble understanding that some people are genuinely happy to pay more for quality? It's not ego, elitism or racism. It's simply being happier with a quality gun.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Here, here.

 

For once I agree with Sledge. Clones just don't have the same feel as TM or CA.

 

I also don't have as much respect for clones guns as I do my high ends. IE I didn't think twice when selling the clones I had but, when the time came to get rid of my TM P90 that was a really tough thing to do.

The fact remains that clones are here to stay as are the high end guns. Deal with it. I like and hate clones for a number of reasons. I dislike that they have underminded some of the values of certain items but I love them for driving down the prices of CA. I hope that Chinese manufactures will begin and continue to push towards innovation rather than primarily coping.

[crunkathon2k]

Why is it that people who are fans of clones have so much trouble understanding that some people are genuinely happy to pay more for quality? It's not ego, elitism or racism. It's simply being happier with a quality gun.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'm not saying that high end guns are bad. If you present to me a choice of a classic army m15 or a JG m4, I would definitely choose the CA even though the JG is still a good gun. But if I was on a budget, I'd probably go JG.

 

However, I don't see the reason why sometimes spend 1000+ on custom bodies, replacements on every single internal part, and RS parts and complain when much cheaper clones come out.

[Stealthbomber]

However, I don't see the reason why sometimes spend 1000+ on custom bodies, replacements on every single internal part, and RS parts and complain when much cheaper clones come out.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Because it's annoying when you've spent a lot of time, money and effort to produce something special to suddenly find that every man and his dog can now own one if they want.

 

Also, it devalues to resale cost of more expensive guns.

Any idea what the 2nd-hand value for an M14 EBR is going to be if a clone becomes available for $150?

 

Frankly, however, the lost investment isn't what p**ses me off. I DO pride myself on owning guns that I've made to look a particular way and seeing the same item freely available to anybody with $80 to spend is quite annoying.

 

Especially when they then go on to lecture everybody within earshot as to how it's "just as good" as any other gun.

[Sledge]

I was referring to:

"2) People that own the expensive guns cloned want to make sure their airsoft ego isn't compromised when some n00b shows up on the field with a cheap copy of their gun that looks too similar for their liking."

I see that being said a lot, but I don't understand why.

 

[Pariah_WP]

I wanted to sum up my thoughts on this matter. Its mine and it probably stinks. =D

 

I will ALWAYS buy a quality gun if I want a stock gun that I can rely on or a gun that I don't plan on upgrading that much. I will also get them for their typically better physical aesthetic appearance too. I will buy a clone for bits to fix better guns, for project guns and for the fact that I can test things on them I wouldn't attempt outright with a higher quality gun.

 

AEGs are like a box of chocolates...you get what you paid for. lol

[GuzziHero]

Id say they were more like a box of assorted biscuits. Some bits are sweet and candy coated, the rest are just soggy cheap buttermilks. But you dont know which they are till you sink your teeth in.

[srpg]

blah blah blah. nothing new here. moving along

[iloveics]

I generally buy high end guns. for my workhorse rifle, so I know it's going to last a fair few miles.

But I buy clones for projects. or to satisfy a craving for a certain gun without having to pay a hefty high end price, when i'm not going to use it that much.

 

Also Clones are great for people who know there way around an AEG, making easy fix's not problem.

However I still believe that High end guns are better for total n00bs, because generally they last longer.

 

It's not a bad idea to buy clones for spare parts to repair high end guns, because there parts a generally good quality, it's just the way there put together.

 

 

It must be horrible to spend months and hundreds on a completely custom gun, for a clone company to bring out something that looks similar for £100.

 

Overall clones have there place, and so do high end guns.

[Pinkfloyd]

Have you guys noticed how arguments against clones have changed over time? Not all of these arguments occur and change over time; some pop up all over the spectrum of time. However, I realized that certain arguments are more popular in certain time periods.

 

Stage 1: Repudiation

 

"Ignore clones! There is NO WAY they can be so cheap, something has to be wrong. Think about how much it costs for the materials alone to make them; for example, gears are already 50 bucks for a complete set, and think of all the other factors that go in to make an AEG. Established brands are the way to go."

 

Stage 2: Extreme Caution

 

"Sure they MIGHT perform well... for the first 1000 rounds. Established brands have more experience and have far better QC; there is a far less chance of getting a lemon. In a clone, there's always little things going wrong, such as the hop up not working right, or slight misfeeding. The extra 100 dollars is worth it for a used TM."

 

Stage 3: Moral Rejection

 

"Okay, clones may be good guns, but think about what you are doing to the Airsoft community by supporting them! Companies like Tokyo Marui are LOSING MONEY because everybody will buy cheaper clones, therefore they will invest less in R&D. Plus, more teenagers will buy clones and do stupid things, giving our sport bad publicity."

 

Stage 4: Nitpicking

"Clones can't just magically be cheap- they're cheap for a reason. Clones might be made in sweatshops, so by buying clones, you are actually supporting SLAVERY! Also, Chinese factories have no concern over their consumers, there is a risk that the paint in your gun actually contains lead! Sure you might get a gun for cheap, but I will have the last laugh when you grow an extra arm!"

 

Stage 5: ???????

 

I'm still waiting to be surprised by stage 5.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

keep your fancy arguement, I just have a rpoblem with buying Chinese *beep*.

[M0ldyM!LK]

As someone relatively new to Airsoft, I don't have an issue with clones. I think they're nice starter weapons, and I'd definitely buy one.

 

However, the fact remains that my Classic Army MP5 has a build quality that no clone that I've used even comes close to.

 

 

I won't argue against clones, but I won't zealously defend them either due to the fact that the mainstream manufacturers (TM, CA, ICS, etc.) simply produce higher quality replicas.

[pathfinder909]

for a guy like me, clones are just the answer. I don't have a lot of opportunity to just shell out cash for high end guns, nor would i want to get into the habit of spending a lot of my money on airsoft (even though i love airsoft) .. i think some people get carried away with their spending and do not realize that clone guns give people with less financial opportunity more of a chance to get in the sport.

 

for all that i see, the new clones work pretty well. Haven't had any problems with my JG g36c, but we will see. I acknowledge that Tokyo Marui probably has much better QC and reliability, but when i could buy 2 great guns for the price of 1 superior gun, i think i would go with the first.

[renegadecow]

And the lesson of the 5-page story is:

 

Some people are just not content with what they have in that they have to go out of their way just to bash everyone else to make themselves feel all smug, i.e. sour grape

[Nicoli]

I can see where both sides are coming from. Personally I don't own a clone, and aside from maybe buying my GF one so she can start the sport I dont see myself owning one either.

 

Yes, they help saitsfy gun cravings, and help newer people try out the sport....but I do get tired of having people walk up to me at skirmishes and go "Ooo thats the clone L96 isn't it..."

 

when my APS2-EX i converted ito an L96 and fully upgraded has cost me ALOT of time and money to do. (and no I wouldn't go back on a single part of it, as I like the fact my 'EX96' is unique to me)

 

As I said though, I have nothnig against clones really. My best mate has just got a Warrior and to be fair, its pretty damn close to shooting as well as mine for about £400 less.

 

I don't know, guess I'm weird. I like his Warrior, and might get the missus one......yet I hate having people think that my EX96 is one....hmmmm

[snowman]

Why is it that people who are fans of clones have so much trouble understanding that some people are genuinely happy to pay more for quality? It's not ego, elitism or racism. It's simply being happier with a quality gun.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Blimey - DID Sledge REALLY write that...

 

Cheers.

[ruchik]

I would imagine this argument can be put in perspective with the real steel guns situation. Take a look at John Browning's ingenious 1911 design. There are so many variations of that short recoil design used by so many different manfuacturers, not mentioning the myriad 1911 manufacturers who build their own versions of the basic Colt 1911. Springfield Armory, Kimber, etc. are "clones" of the Colt. But they all appeal to different parts of the market. You want a custom one-off gun, you go Wilson Combat or Les Baer. You want economy, you go Kimber or Springfield Armory. You want original, you go Colt. Same thing. Clone guns are for a particular market niche, and like it or not, there is always someone out there with not enough money for a name-brand gun and wants something that he/she can start off with for a reasonable price. Obviously, if they were such bad quality, then they would not be in business anymore. But they do what they are designed to do effectively-emulate the performance and look of higher end guns without breaking the bank (how well they do that is debatable).

And honestly-just because someone bought a gun that looks like something you spent hours and $$$ on and you don't like clones for that reason is kind of a weak argument. It's your gun, it's for your enjoyment, and you don't have to prove anything to anyone. You know how much work you put into it, you know it works, you know it's custom, and that other guy is either a wannabe, stingy, doesn't have the technical knowhow, or simply bought something that he/she likes the look of. Fact is, you can rest assured that your gun is the real deal, and the others are a copy.

 

*edit: Bottom line is, you get what you pay for. People who buy clones can't expect brand-name quality at the cheaper price, and I am sure those who buy clones know that. But it's a good alternative to paying big bucks if you don't have the funds. Or if you are simply looking for a beater/loaner/skirmisher gun and want to keep the name-brand stuff for collection. As I said a while back, buying a Western Arms, for example, is like buying a BMW. A KJW or WE would be like buying a Honda Civic. Same analogy applies. You can't get the same performance, quality, and manufacturer support that you can get from BMW from the Civic, but it does the job for less money. Like Sledge said, some people buy higher quality stuff simply because they are happier with high quality pieces, myself included, after trying numerous different guns from WE, KJW, and KSC.

[tome]

What ruchik said

 

Oh yeah - post count up by one about the only thing this thread is good for now hehe

[balberoth-the-destroyer]

I agree that you do get what you pay for, in that those unable to repair an AEG get peace of mind by spending more money on quality, if you can fix your own gun, then you have peace of mind anyway.

However, I think that there are vested interests on both sides:

 

High end fans: wanting to preserve the "elite status" of their expensive gun.

Clone fans: wanting to erode that status by claiming that the clone is as good.

 

Neither viewpoint is correct, both omit the benefits of the other side.

 

I have two upgraded AEGs, one is a CA, the other an SRC, the only reason I prefer the CA over the SRC is because I have spent more time and effort working on the gun to get it to the level of performance it is at now.

Considering the minimal number of upgrades, (spring, tightbore) installed in the SRC, I expect that if I upgraded it as much as the CA, it would perform at least as well, but that doesn't make me like the CA less, or the SRC more, they both have their place.

 

I guess my overall point is that consideration of the pro/con of either type of gun is fine, but where is the need for elitist attempts to claim that the other side is wrong, high-end guns have their place, clone guns have their place, can't we all just play happy families?

[Stealthbomber]

I would imagine this argument can be put in perspective with the real steel guns situation. Take a look at John Browning's ingenious 1911 design. There are so many variations...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Great example.

 

So, If some chinese company started making knock-offs of Les Baer specials and selling them for $400, how do you think that'd make owners of original Les Baer guns feel?

[Noxman]

It seems to me that, from the vastly fluctuating opinions of those who own clones and personal experience, some clones are good, sometimes, if you're lucky.

It comes down to the fact that the clone manufacturing companies have terrible quality control, making buying one a large gamble. It might turn out pretty good, reliably putting out 20k rounds without fail or it might come apart in your hands shortly after taking it out of the box.

If you want a gun that doesn't fly apart on occaision, get a TM or something, but if you want to gamble (like to live dangerously etc) then get a clone.