M14 GBB !

[cent101]

The more GBBRs the better, and especially if they work out of the box. And what i think you, who complain in advance at the lack of after market support, miss is that the WE M4 was not the first GBBR M4, but the M14 most likely will be the first modern GBBR m14. And that's good. So now we have one confirmed performer GBBR so far (and yes, it is the KJW. bo hoo to all other fanboys out there, but it has behind it a thorough testing phase by Tanio Koba, so props to him), and more in the pipeline. Yay!

 

...and i second UsmcCorps! Test it to the death! And use steel!

[UrPeaceKeeper]

I say cover your bases... Produce a full length first, then the SOCOM 16 length and then focus on other more obscure versions later. If the gun retains any real steel features (stocks... please) then people can add their JAE and EBR kits from the real deal UNTILL you guys or an aftermarket company can create those stocks at cheaper prices specifically for the airsoft version. I want to point out, that there is still a large market in the full length, wood stocked versions of the M14 for both Vietnam reenactors and for those of us who like the M21 platform or the enhanced M14's used by the current US military. The full length rifle will have a huge player base who would be interested in purchasing one in a synthetic stock too. The SOCOM 16 would be the next largest group of players. And from there just about every major part can then be left to the aftermarket to take care of or when money applies. Look at the trend TM took when it released it's M14, full length first, then SOCOM. G&G did the same thing, heck, just about every M14 produced for airsoft to date was full length first

 

Right now, you guys should be more focused on making a reliable, accurate and efficient system that satisfies the largest player bases' desires. And if I must say, I'd like to see a video with this gun shooting on CO2, because I can assure you that the gas used in that video does not satisfy mah need for recoil >: ) Anyway, if it spits out a good amount of recoil, efficiently, accurately, and reliably on CO2 then you have me as a surefire buyer. I'll even offer to help test it untill it breaks for you and offer area's I think should be improved (I have to admit, I'm overly critical of M14's, they are my "area of expertise") My preference would be to a full

 

As for brass under the bolt? It never detracted from the system IMO. People are too finicky. I thought it looked like another round being chambered and never saw it as a detracting feature from the system. If the brass tube offers more recoil, more efficiency and reliability, I can deal with that.

 

I'd also like to ask one small favor... AEG Hop up rubbers or at least AEG hop up nubs. I've not followed the WE M4 thread since about page 300, but IIRC you guys are still using ball bearings for hop up adjustment? That simply wont cut it in a gun that in AEG form (and real form) is hailed as being overly accurate

[WhiteHawksan]

I definitely second the AEG hop rubbers/units if its possible. There is a huge market for the M14, as its a legendary gun, so test it to death... and then consider testing phase 1 of 10 complete. Admittedly I'm mildly biased but I much prefer function over form, if theres a brass tube, but it works then great, I just have a distinct dislike of buying a gun knowing that from the moment I get it Im gonna be spending more money to make it work.

[Korppi]

WETTI: How about an accessory to the magwell which allows the use of external gas (routed via hose through gun to grip/stock or near magwell) and for it magazines with just bb feed (or standard mags w/o valves sold cheaper). If made specifically, they could be midcap/hicap as no space is lost storing gas/co2 capsules. Without going external gas it would be hard to make a consistent dmr gun. This kind of accessory would surely attract the interest of say classics users and those who generally want the most of the gun. I bet they would like to see it in your other models too. Also players living in colder climates could use the gun with this accessory longer periods of the year not only the summer season.

 

I most certainly won't be buying a gas-in-the-mag gun with moving parts larger than those of an m11. There just isn't a way to power anything bigger shooting full auto than an smg with GIM without jeopardizing consistency.

 

Ot. I don't see point in a video of an M14 fitted with aftermarket compensator and a foregrip. But with a good stance and experience battlerifles can be tamed, sure.

-

. I sure had to struggle to keep the MPi-KM side folder on target at 50m range full auto first time and that ain't near x51 in terms of kicking your shoulder in, RK-95 not so much. Just saying..

[RacingManiac]

Why a DMR would need the full auto capability though? Current breed of GBBR does a decent enough job on semi without a need for external gas source...

[UrPeaceKeeper]

Ot. I don't see point in a video of an M14 fitted with aftermarket compensator and a foregrip. But with a good stance and experience battlerifles can be tamed, sure.

-

. I sure had to struggle to keep the MPi-KM side folder on target at 50m range full auto first time and that ain't near x51 in terms of kicking your shoulder in, RK-95 not so much. Just saying..

 

Those were not aftermarket... the M14E2 was issued in small quantities as a man portable support weapon. The point was to show that an M14 is controllably accurate with someone who is trained at shooting.

 

EDIT:

Why a DMR would need the full auto capability though? Current breed of GBBR does a decent enough job on semi without a need for external gas source...

 

Because the real M14 was a battle rifle first not a DMR?

[Korppi]

Hmm, yes E2 seems to have the accessories. But speaking vanilla M14..I agree on the training, check the vids on my last post. But ot anyway.

 

 

Well you can think out of box too, having a scar that shoots mag after mag full auto would be sweet no? On a DMR the ability to control the pressure is quite fundamental for tuning it right. W/o regulator you just can't. I understand that some just have the fitts for seeing the hose, but unless one can fit 20oz of co2 to a single magazine and fit a regulator too, I'm using it.

[RacingManiac]

Because the real M14 was a battle rifle first not a DMR?

 

 

He was talking about using it as a DMR though. In most cases with GBBs I've seen, aside from maybe a super high FPS first shot, the next 10-20 shots the FPS should not drop more than maybe 20fps. Especially if you are shooting slow and delibrately, as I picture a DMR might. I wouldn't call a high-cap, external gas, full auto shooting as a normal DMR application...

[frogfish]

Agreed a regulator is needed to make a consistant DMR, otherwise it's just a big AR. A rifle that shoots the same place consistently can be tuned to be accurate, but a rifle that has no shot-to-shot consistency is no good as a dmr. However I think a micro regulator could be fitted into the mags in a co2 variant, they would be expensive, but do-able.

 

10-20fps variance is quite a bit there, that could be the difference between making a hit or not if you are using your replica to it's fullest. With regulated gas we are talking a 2-5 PSI variance that will maybe cause a 5FpS variance, maybe.

 

I think for the most part people will use it stock, and those few who really want it preforming right will tap the mags and set it up for regulated CO2.

[-=OGGY=-]

Well you can think out of box too, having a scar that shoots mag after mag full auto would be sweet no? On a DMR the ability to control the pressure is quite fundamental for tuning it right. W/o regulator you just can't. I understand that some just have the fitts for seeing the hose, but unless one can fit 20oz of co2 to a single magazine and fit a regulator too, I'm using it.

 

Not everyone wants to use this a DMR though.

 

WETTI I still say you need to make some effort to get a 'high-end' version made. Full steel, forged, with stamped trades in all the right places would be absolutley A M A Z I N G.

 

Internally, I would love to see:

-Full steel

-AEG or VSR style hop-ups and barrels.

-Click adjustment for the hop-up

 

Also if you use Inokatsu style thread adaptors for the barrel (for both real and airsoft threads) that would be great. Like this: http://www.gasguns.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=300

 

-OGGY

[yehaw]

WETTI I still say you need to make some effort to get a 'high-end' version made. Full steel, forged, with stamped trades in all the right places would be absolutley A M A Z I N G. wub.gif

 

Internally, I would love to see:

-Full steel

-AEG or VSR style hop-ups and barrels.

-Click adjustment for the hop-up

 

 

+1

 

exactly what i want.

[WhiteHawksan]

I think forged is probably asking a bit much, but stamped steel would be fine

 

and I think that's the point people are missing, personally this'll be a good ole fashioned battle rifle, short full auto bursts and a right good barrel of fun, if I wanted to turn it into a DMR I'd personally go down the Classic NBB route, who wants blowback messing up your next shot when consistency is key?

[UrPeaceKeeper]

I think forged is probably asking a bit much, but stamped steel would be fine

 

and I think that's the point people are missing, personally this'll be a good ole fashioned battle rifle, short full auto bursts and a right good barrel of fun, if I wanted to turn it into a DMR I'd personally go down the Classic NBB route, who wants blowback messing up your next shot when consistency is key?

 

Just playing devils advocate in an attempt to subdue anger from things that are going on in real life, but those of us who are DM's and want realistic recoil?

 

I would REALLY like to see the stamping die necessary to stamp out an M14 upper reciever, because it would be EPIC. Personally, I'll deal with a quality cast steel reciever. The reciever does not have to withstand a whole lot of force perse and a quality cast steel reciever would work just as well as any of the others AND would keep cost down and would not feel like utter poo under hand either.

 

I really think forged recievers would be excessivly expensive and would limit the scope of people that such a rifle would be accessable to. This would in turn cause a loss of sales which would cause the platform to fail. The platform can succeed with enough users to justify an aftermarket.

[WETTI]

I am the only one kind of dissapointed by the fact this is a WE? To me "WE" means VERY limited aftermarket parts. (Just look at the M4, there are maybe two receiver sets for it; three if you count the trademarked one made by WE themselves.)

 

I was really hoping this M14 system could be used by companies like Inokatsu or Real Sword to make 'high-end' versions of the gun. (Like they are currently doing with the WA M4 system.)

 

WETTI, have you considered working with a company like Inokatsu or Real Sword to get 'high end' parts made for the gun? (I mention Inokatsu and Real Sword because I know they both have forging abilities. [The real USGI M14 receiver is forged; as are other parts of it.]) Maybe you could allow other companies to make parts like steel receivers, bolts, charging handles, barrel assemblies, etc.

 

Whether the parts are sold as a kit or as a complete 'enhanced' model really doesn't matter, as long is there is some option to have a "high-end" M14 I would certainly buy one and I'm sure many others would as well. Right now I am on the fence about buying this because I really don't see it 'going' anywhere. (By that I mean I don't see huge numbers of aftermarket parts becming availible.) I don't think I would be happy with an alluminum/pot metal M14 that should be all steel.

 

-OGGY

 

OGGY:

 

1. NO, we have not considered working with Inokatsu or RS for very simple reasons:

- Inokatsu: They have NO forging or CNC capability. All their forged products are out-sourced to various small factories in Taiwan. Their CNC products are made by LCT in Taiwan

- RS: This is a PRC firm & as well they have no in-house machining capability in China.

 

2. Indeed a few 3rd-party manufacturers are talking to us about offering different conversion kits for our M14 platform. Our feelings is positive towards it.

 

3. There will be a sea of upgrade parts available for this new gun, I can assure you of it simply because of all the interest shown by the various manufacturers in producing after market parts for our platform.

 

You know what.... what it boils down to is how many of the gun are sold, which would in turn entice the many after market manufacturers to produce parts for it. It just a matter of supply & demand. At this time, the reaction is very positive & most of these manufacturers are predicting success with this new platform.

[Bloodsword]

If you make good guns for a decent price, they will sell! The jungle drum works that well for airsoft atleast in the internets.

[somegirls]

Well, there are only a handful manufacturers of aftermarket parts for the AR platform of your's. And I think it sold pretty well so far.

 

But firms are already asking for "permission" of making aftermarket parts for a gun that has been teased just a few days ago?

 

Sounds odd.

 

I mean, there isn't even an ambi fireselector for the M4.

 

I'm kinda excited about this, since it takes WE a lot of steps forward to finally make a gun that works reliably out of the box and even after a few hundred shots.

 

Hopefully you learn from mistakes made in the past.

 

Make durable internals test it excessivly (no one call tell anyone tested the first M4 with that epic fail hop up and glued on forward assist).

 

I'd rather spend a few bucks more for a gun that works (like the KWA MP7 when it came out) that spending a lot of money, time and anger of ironing out bad testing.

[-=OGGY=-]

OGGY:

 

1. NO, we have not considered working with Inokatsu or RS for very simple reasons:

- Inokatsu: They have NO forging or CNC capability. All their forged products are out-sourced to various small factories in Taiwan. Their CNC products are made by LCT in Taiwan

- RS: This is a PRC firm & as well they have no in-house machining capability in China.

 

2. Indeed a few 3rd-party manufacturers are talking to us about offering different conversion kits for our M14 platform. Our feelings is positive towards it.

 

3. There will be a sea of upgrade parts available for this new gun, I can assure you of it simply because of all the interest shown by the various manufacturers in producing after market parts for our platform.

 

You know what.... what it boils down to is how many of the gun are sold, which would in turn entice the many after market manufacturers to produce parts for it. It just a matter of supply & demand. At this time, the reaction is very positive & most of these manufacturers are predicting success with this new platform.

 

Fair enough WETTI. I appreciate the responce. Hopefully the M14 can generate all of the aftermarket parts you are talking about.

 

I would still love to see forged receivers but that is a little dream of mine. I know forging is expensive but I've got an Inokatsu M4 next to me and let me tell you, it is worth it. Maybe they will come as an accessory some time down the road after the release.

 

-OGGY

[christhesecond]

Billet Mk14 chassis please

[WETTI]

If you make good guns for a decent price, they will sell! The jungle drum works that well for airsoft atleast in the internets.

 

Agreed! And SOME compromises must be made in the manufacturing processes to control the costs. That's just life. If any one of you have any idea about production & manufacturing (instead of just wishing for the BEST), then you will understand what I'm saying. High-end manufacturing, while appealing to the most discerned connoisseurs, is bound to fail as a general product & the companies who do that are bound to stay SMALL. Manufacturers who make 'decent' (but not necessary BEST) products at decent prices will grow with much success; their products (with definite room for improvements) will give rise to an entire after market of improvement parts. Witness the AEG market for a perfect example of what I'm saying.

 

After that said, we will give it our best effort to make sure this new AWSS M14 platform will be as much issue-free as possible out-of-box.

[uscmCorps]

After that said, we will give it our best effort to make sure this new AWSS M14 platform will be as much issue-free as possible out-of-box.

Historically, airsofters are more forgiving when a gun is just okay on the outside but great on the inside, than they are when it's the other way around. I would say, based off the video I've seen so far, externally you're going in the right direction. Just make absolutely sure the parts will hold up to sustained use and abuse. If you can do that, you'll have a winning product. Sure all the other bells and whistles people are asking for would be great, but most of those may dictate a MSRP beyond what the majority are willing to pay. If the gun is solid out of the box people will buy it. If the gun looks pretty but after a few skirmishes ends up being a wall hanger it'll alienate an entire customer base.

[837889]

I need one now!!!!

[WhiteHawksan]

I think generally and I think I speak for most people here is that if in testing you find the something or other breaks and you need to up the price by $20 per unit to make it out of something stronger, I'd happily pay the extra $20 to have it work rather than pay later when it breaks after I've bought it.

[danielsilva]

Agreed! And SOME compromises must be made in the manufacturing processes to control the costs. That's just life. If any one of you have any idea about production & manufacturing ....

 

....

After that said, we will give it our best effort to make sure this new AWSS M14 platform will be as much issue-free as possible out-of-box.

 

I agree with you on some points but you must realize that when you have a major fault on your product, like the trigger group, and there isn't a replacement part on the market to fill that void from a 3rd party, you must create some solution yourself to avoid loosing credibility and market.

 

While i do understand and agree that there must be compromises on manufacturing processes to keep the cost down, that itself doesn't imply that there isn't anything you can do to resolve it. At least give an option to get higher quality parts for key components like the trigger group, it's a major fault that still persists and the solution is very simple, either manufacture yourself or join with a third party to produce them for you and sell it as an upgrade kit.

 

There are many other companies that use this to gain extra income and at the same time give costumers what they want. You just can't say that your M14 will be a success when there are still issues with your latest generation of products. And this is coming from a very satisfied costumer but the low quality of the entire trigger group is a critical problem on ALL your current products.

[RayL]

Agreed! And SOME compromises must be made in the manufacturing processes to control the costs. That's just life. If any one of you have any idea about production & manufacturing (instead of just wishing for the BEST), then you will understand what I'm saying. High-end manufacturing, while appealing to the most discerned connoisseurs, is bound to fail as a general product & the companies who do that are bound to stay SMALL.

 

I bit off the M14 topic, but does this mean we will never see an upgraded trigger pack manufactured for your M4/SCAR? It's about the only major upgrade that can increase durability for at least a couple of years (with proper maintenance of course).

[uscmCorps]

At least give an option to get higher quality parts for key components like the trigger group, it's a major fault that still persists and the solution is very simple, either manufacture yourself or join with a third party to produce them for you and sell it as an upgrade kit.

 

There are many other companies that use this to gain extra income and at the same time give costumers what they want.

I understand your perspective on this but IMO, if a company knows a collection of components within a product is going to fail quickly and with a high frequency when used in the intended parameters it was designed for, and they knowingly release it with the assumption that they can milk more money out of the customer later on with "upgrade parts" ... I'd find that more irksome and would drive me away quicker than anything else. Unforeseeable issues that aren't evident with extensive T&E will still come up. That happens all the time. Whether or not a company knew about those issues is what concerns people as does how the company addresses those issues when they arise. If you've got to cut corners to keep cost down, cut the right ones. Reliability and durability aren't one of those. Like WhiteHawksan said, if it cost an extra $20 to get it done right the first time, then so be it. Repairing something that should never had to be repaired in the first place is what ticks people off.