UN Company Raided

[intinerious]

i can see the rest of the shops in HK will be hiding the hotter guns in storage to wait until it's cooled off... or actually... do what they've been doing since forever... put a label on it saying 'export only' to hide it in plain sight.

 

Is that actually, legally, possible to be exempt from the possession charges?  According to Section 9 of the Firearms and Ammunition Ordinance, you actually have a number of hurdles to go through before you are exempted from Sections 13 and 14 (possession and dealing in firearms offences respectively).  That being said, whether you broke the law, whether you're arrested on suspicion that you broke the law and whether you're convicted of breaking the law fall under different circumstances; so perhaps even though just slapping an export label to >2J guns do not make the shops exempt from Sections 13 and 14, but the police probably don't bother arresting the shop employees anyway.

 

It's as easy as getting an undercover cop posing as a customer to go in and ask if they're willing to modify a gun over 2J. I'm not sure however if they were doing this for everyone or just known customers

 

If they did it with everyone I would think a large police operation would have taken place at all the shops rather than just UNCompany; since going after any one shop first and leaving the rest till later would leave the other shops time to destroy/hide the 'firearms' as news travel very quickly this day and age.  I suspect that someone made enough of a fuss as per MooCow's suspicions at a police station to warrant the UNCo raid.

[intinerious]

Ok, although I don't agree with illegal activities like this surely that is a double example of 'gene-pool and chlorine' syndrome?

 

'FireKnife'

 

Well it's not like you can ask a shop to do illegal upgrades to an airsoft gun any other way safer

[Cannonfodder80]

I think FK's comment about chlorine in the gene pool is more along the lines of if the person asking is a long time customer and known to the shop owner they may say yes, but if the person asking is some random customer off the street then it's not exactly the brainwave of the year to agree to do these upgrades

[intinerious]

I think FK's comment about chlorine in the gene pool is more along the lines of if the person asking is a long time customer and known to the shop owner they may say yes, but if the person asking is some random customer off the street then it's not exactly the brainwave of the year to agree to do these upgrades

 

Ah right  Then again greed knows no bounds when you're a shady company to begin with XD  They're still around btw, but they're selling other stuff like bikes now.  Still in the same location as the old S3 and their sign above the shop remains unchanged.

 

Btw the multiquote and quote options on Arnies' been a bit wonky for a while now ever since the share button and some other stuff were added to Arnies.  Makes editing multiple quotes in a post difficult if you want to keep a consistent formatting D:

[dview]

I'm very curious what will happen with the orders made in the meantime on their website .

My order was supposed to be sent tomorrow ( Friday )

[blobface]

http://life.mingpao.com/cfm/dailynews3b.cfm?File=20130310/nalgo/gob1.txt

 

Hopefully google translate does a good enough job, but anyhow, these raids are a results of this I believe, some *rickroll* shot someone with a modified gun earlier on, and even earlier on, a father and son went around shooting cats with 4.5mm guns, which the media labelled "airsoft gun" (or gas gun in Cantonese).. so I think someone's trying to make ranks in the police department... but anyway, my question is... how the hell do you mod an airsoft gun to fire 15J!? uranium BBs? 

[jal3]

You need like 800-1000 PSI (so CO2 is enough) in a system that has a high, short flow from valve to BB.

Use as heavy a BB as possible with a decent amount of barrel length (3-500mm ish). 6mm steel BB's at 0,89g are easy to find for cheap.

Hammer spring must be strong enough to properly open and retain open the valve.

 

The older WE M4's shot 15j+ under the right circumstances.

And people wonder why i'm against chronoing with 0,20.

[NeoVeNoM]

They are in HK, if any of the gun in their store over 2j. They are in trouble.try not to compare the law in two different countries

 

Well maybe you should, it's a good learning tool.

 

15J is about 1275FPS @.20gr.

or 570FPS @1.0gr.

 

Chrono everyone at .20gr and you take out the people who don't like the site limits.

[QQexDERA]

Perhaps they just forgot to bribe the right people?

[Fightingchook]

Perhaps they just forgot to bribe the right people?

 

not likely.... we have the ICAC in hk and anti corrotion is a big deal here. not that it doesn't exist.

 

A couple of smaller shops were snapped in previous months moving airguns, but this is this first of the big 5 to take a big hit like this.

 

Although recently there has been an attempt to change the law, it was delayed and possibly rejected. so its thought this is the powers the be... stretching the legs maybe, or even mainland influenced possibly.

In any case, models 1.9joules and below are toys, over 2 joules are firearms so someone just has pointed a finger and Un co could possibly now be closed for good.

Hopefully they can recover from this hic-up as i can only hope they weren't supplying triads with high powered Airguns.

wait and see i guess.

there website is still up... so just be very cautious if you plan to place an order there over coming weeks.

sadly those with current unshiped orders could be screwed!

 

4000 seized models ...still to be tested, as it only happened last night.

 

at a guess i would say maybe 2% would be over the limit.

A&K SVD, Mp44, KJW M700, Co2 pistols etc

and apparently they will also be done for trademark infringements which could also be extensive in numbers of infringements.

 

although 10 peoples spent the night behind bars for there hobby, and should see a judge today, so some think the store will reopen within days.

finger crossed.

 

And hopefully this is not a sudden trend.

=/

[jal3]

The biggest issue is losing their stocked items. The police are gonna take a long time before they give it back, if they give it back at all.

[NonEx]

Ah yeah so they did get hit with the trademark issues as well... Dang man.

[Fightingchook]

Ah yeah so they did get hit with the trademark issues as well... Dang man.

 

"Aparently..."  

 

I have a friend of a friend that works... worked in the warehouse,  so it is heresay... but hopefully more clearer intel can follow.later...

As sadly hes currently locked up... =\

[blobface]

The biggest issue is losing their stocked items. The police are gonna take a long time before they give it back, if they give it back at all.

 

Hong Kong police play airsoft... so they probably won't get it back. 

[The S.C.A.R.]

Well that sucks...most of my airsoft guns and equipments are from UN CO.

 

There's crack downs on airsoft guns in HK lately...mostly involving people who modified weapons for higher power...this isn't the first incident within this year...

[Noveske]

not likely.... we have the ICAC in hk and anti corrotion is a big deal here. not that it doesn't exist.

 

 

You mean "corruption".  Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

Anyways,  here's an article about another airgun-related arrest and the UN seizure today in the paper:

 

[kenxin]

You mean "corruption".  Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

Anyways,  here's an article about another airgun-related arrest and the UN seizure today in the paper:

 

 

The girl and child wounding sound ok....BUT "damage to water pipes and walls of a residential building.....such offenses can mean up to 14 years in prison".......what?

[Noveske]

Correct me if I'm wrong:

 

The law in HK stipulates an airgun of 2 Joules and above to be classified as a firearm.  

 

Energy (measured) in Joules is a function of velocity and mass.  If I were to put a 0.12g bb into a gun running 500FPS, I should still only get less than 2J.  In reverse, if I have a 0.43g bb running 350FPS, it should be well over 2J.  So in the end, it depends on the mass of the projectile, which is not a choice of the retailer who is allegedly "modifying" these airsoft guns, but of the end user.

 

Not to play devil's advocate, but do I see...LOOPHOLE?

[TnL]

no... whatever weight BB they use the energy will be about the same... only the velocity will change

[The S.C.A.R.]

Regardless of all that...bad news for airsofters in HK...seems like the new government's tightening the noose on airsoft in there...

[Noveske]

no... whatever weight BB they use the energy will be about the same... only the velocity will change

 

 

Wait, where's the science in that?  I don't believe that is true at all.

 

EDIT: Typo.

[intinerious]

Correct me if I'm wrong:

 

The law in HK stipulates an airgun of 2 Joules and above to be classified as a firearm.  

 

Energy (measured) in Joules is a function of velocity and mass.  If I were to put a 0.12g bb into a gun running 500FPS, I should still only get less than 2J.  In reverse, if I have a 0.43g bb running 350FPS, it should be well over 2J.  So in the end, it depends on the mass of the projectile, which is not a choice of the retailer who is allegedly "modifying" these airsoft guns, but of the end user.

 

Not to play devil's advocate, but do I see...LOOPHOLE?

 

Loophole?  Not really but more like a grey area of the law.  It's not like our firearms ordinance have been reviewed constantly over the past couple of years and I don't remember any cases regarding firearms over the last couple of years (specifically airsoft guns) so it's up to UNCo if they are charged with possession (amongst other offences in the ordinance) to argue that point in court.  Whether or not the court accepts it is something nobody can predict with certainty at this point (again, assuming there's no precedent case).  Would be interesting from a legal perspective whether that argument would work against Section 13 (and others) or not.

 

That said from my brief skimming of the ordinance they never specified the ammunition mass used; so one would think that as long as the equipment on hand can shoot up to 2J, it's a firearm as defined by the ordinance.

 

EDIT:

Cap. 238, Section 2(1): "arms" means- ... (b ) an air rifle, air gun or air pistol from which any shot, bullet or missile can be discharged with a muzzle 

energy greater than 2 joules; 

 

So, as far as I can tell from the Ordinance, as long as your airsoft rifle can fire 2J with any projectile then it's a firearm.  As much as this implication is far reaching on the current airsoft guns available in Hong Kong in the shops or already owned by airsofters; I wouldn't mind seeing the muzzle energy capped further in Hong Kong due to the potentials of the airsoft guns already in the market.

 

no... whatever weight BB they use the energy will be about the same... only the velocity will change

 

Not true at all.  I won't bother going to talk about GBBRs (which if you understand how they work is pretty self-explanatory as to why heavier bbs net higher muzzle energy) but if you over-volume your AEG (which has a fixed volume) say by using a full cylinder on a short barrel, you can shoot at a higher muzzle energy with heavier bbs than with lighter ones.

 

The girl and child wounding sound ok....BUT "damage to water pipes and walls of a residential building.....such offenses can mean up to 14 years in prison".......what?

 

UP to 14 years in prison...  Doesn't mean that snapping off a pipe in a residential building in HK means you'll be in prison for 14 years

 

Regardless of all that...bad news for airsofters in HK...seems like the new government's tightening the noose on airsoft in there...

 

 

Well I don't see it that way, just the government responding to the recent spree of crimes committed by people having over the 2J limit airsoft guns and shooting at people. Any other government would respond the same way to ease public fear.  Also, there's nothing in regards to changing the laws related to airsoft in Hong Kong for now (not to say that there won't be, but as of the current news cycle there's no foreseeable action being taken in LegCo...plus they have more 'political' items to take care of currently ) so there's no 'assault' on our hobby so to speak.  It's a shame that certain people in Hong Kong (along with certain techs) are willing to break the law for trivial reasons which ends up putting airsoft in a negative spotlight.  But because crimes have been committed; I would think one should not blame the government for their recent action(s) against shops and 'suspects' who are turning airsoft guns into 'arms' as defined in the laws of Hong Kong.

[FireKnife]

I think FK's comment about chlorine in the gene pool is more along the lines of if the person asking is a long time customer and known to the shop owner they may say yes, but if the person asking is some random customer off the street then it's not exactly the brainwave of the year to agree to do these upgrades

 

Nailed it in one. Seriously if someone just walks into your shop that you don't know and asks for something that is an illegal practice then why just say yes you clearly are an idiot.

 

Plus if it was my shop and I found someone offered such a practice, even one FPS over the limit I would sack them on the spot for gross misconduct, but then that is what any normal law abaiding citizen would do.

 

Also I just noticed the above article pictured was written by 'Candy Chan' oh the hilarity.

 

'FireKnife'

[Azubi]

Nailed it in one. Seriously if someone just walks into your shop that you don't know and asks for something that is an illegal practice then why just say yes you clearly are an idiot.

You wouldn't believe the nightmare we had trying to get airsoft stuff in Dubai before it became a bit more accepted. A Lebanese mate and myself wandered round the Dragon Mall trying to find a trader that had airsoft stuff or would even be willing to talk to us about airsoft stuff. Everyone thought we were undercover cops and it took hours before I finally managed to bully someone, with lots of name-dropping, to get even a lead on a trader selling airsoft stuff. I later found out that a Western expat, disgruntled at getting kicked out of games for being a massive bellend, had informed on a load of the Filipino traders down at the Dragon Mall for selling airsoft stuff and there were a load of arrests.

[NeoVeNoM]

Wait, where's the science in that?  I don't believe that is true at all.

 

EDIT: Typo.

Actually it's technically true. But only if the set up of your gun remains the same.

328FPS @ 0.20gr is about 1J

223FPS @ 0.43gr is about 1J

 

 

Tough in reality this is not 100% the case. But it's a close enough match. Also depending on the BB's you use a difference is possible.

As you know, not all bb's have the same size/quality.

 

I did a test a few years back with the same brand. Gearbox internals remained unchanged.

360FPS @ .20gr is 1.2J

 

then I used .25gr and this was the result.

325FPS @.25gr is 1.22J

 

Amount of joules improved by less than 2%.

 

Besides Arnies has this great tool on like forever.

http://www.arniesairsoft.co.uk/?filnavn=/articles/fps_limits/fps_calc.htm