Rob15 Posted June 2, 2015 Report Share Posted June 2, 2015 Even if Cybergun did 'go way' (read, close down or go insolvant) they or the adminstrators would sell off the licences as they are really the only asset they seem to have and you could end up with someone worse (difficult to see how given only Cybergun seem to try and register trademarks that don't belong to them mindyou) buying them. Umarex would seem the likely one to buy up any of the licences if they came onto the market and they don't seem to be that liked either, certainly any KWA H&k replicas have increased in price quite a bit since Umarex got that licence. Link to post Share on other sites
uscmCorps Posted June 2, 2015 Report Share Posted June 2, 2015 Sadly, it's never that simple. Take KAC for example. They finally want a slice of the Airsoft pie but do not allow an exclusive license holder and instead licenses to anyone willing to pay a fee. What happens is that KAC licensed Airsoft companies are able to put out anywhere between high grade to sub par grade products, with the assumption that anything that's *suitcase* will sort itself out in the market via the consumers not buying it. Logically it makes sense but it can also have negative affects on their brand. Licensing does give KAC some money for the parties willing to pay for the license (which is good) but because they don't allow license exclusivity, any infringement is generally unenforceable in countries like Hong Kong. Many smaller Airsoft manufacturers realize this and basically say screw it, do it without licensing. That can be a turn off to many prospective manufacturers. It's a very difficult pro/con balancing act. I have no love for either Cybergun or Umarex, but between the two, Umarex to me seems to be partnering up more with Airsoft companies that put out quality product. Cybergun has thus far seemed by and large far less discriminating. It could be argued that PTS is doing something similar, acquiring exclusive licenses. But I think most people will agree that PTS seems to strive to produce what PTS considers to be a quality product. Link to post Share on other sites
hitmanNo2 Posted June 2, 2015 Report Share Posted June 2, 2015 Wait. So KAC are happy to officially put their name on a POS for $$$ on the assumption it will soon go away because it's so *suitcase*? They don't care as they're already been paid? Link to post Share on other sites
paranoiddroid Posted June 2, 2015 Report Share Posted June 2, 2015 Pretty much, they will let you use the brand as long as you pay the royalties same with the USMC and their *fruitcage* diabolical line of springer *suitcase* including the 'm4' with folding stock that's made out of cheese. If cybergun didn't add *suitcase* to the trades i'd be more interested. Same with the um are stuff I don't want a calibre 6mm marking on the gun in white. Cybergun need to burn simply because of thw fraudulent registration of trademarks that they don't own to strangle the market. Although it does explain the springer beretta I saw marked western arms years ago. The magpul stuff... legally they shouldn't be able to get away with blocking things like the aeg mags unless they have a trade dress registration ala glock. Link to post Share on other sites
allizard Posted June 2, 2015 Report Share Posted June 2, 2015 Since being bought, Magpul has undergone some significant internal changes. That said, now that they've gone their separate ways from PTS, Magpul is struggling to get a handle on how to manage infringement regarding Airsoft counterfeits. I think Cybergun making false claims as to owning the Magpul Airsoft licensing rights is the least of their problems. Magpul moves very slowly on such matters even when it's on their radar. I'm not at liberty to discuss such matters. Heh.... That's pretty much the same as every airsoft related companies I have come across. Link to post Share on other sites
jal3 Posted June 2, 2015 Report Share Posted June 2, 2015 Sadly, it's never that simple. Take KAC for example. They finally want a slice of the Airsoft pie but do not allow an exclusive license holder and instead licenses to anyone willing to pay a fee. What happens is that KAC licensed Airsoft companies are able to put out anywhere between high grade to sub par grade products, with the assumption that anything that's *suitcase* will sort itself out in the market via the consumers not buying it. Logically it makes sense but it can also have negative affects on their brand. That's how it should be done. ASG, Cybergun etc. only uses their exclusive agreements for market control so they can peddle their ACM . Oh, and videogames. Game studios pay royalties to ASG. Yeah. Link to post Share on other sites
uscmCorps Posted June 2, 2015 Report Share Posted June 2, 2015 Wait. So KAC are happy to officially put their name on a POS for $$$ on the assumption it will soon go away because it's so *suitcase*? They don't care as they're already been paid? For most real steel manufacturers their license fees are a percentage or flat fee of the x-factory/OEM cost to produce the product. This is normally contractually paid within a short period from when the products are completed in production. These license fees are (normally) paid regardless of whether the items are on the market in retail stores or at dealers. So while it's in both the licensor's and licensee's best interest that the products sell well and a long lasting relationship is created, the licensor gets paid even if the product is considered by consumer terms, a failure. The airsoft licensee may face a financial risk due to poor of sales. The real steel licensor may incur poor brand exposure but they get paid either way. And for some real steel licensors that's tolerable because at least they get some money for essentially doing nothing and at the end of the day, they consider these "toys" … so why would people expect the product to be high end like their real steel counterparts. It's that kind of thinking that has enabled Cybergun and Umarex (more the former) to continue peddling mediocre at best products. Plus they have deep pockets so they deal in volume across a large product line up accepting the fact that some products will do well and some won't. If enough people buy enough of Cybergun product X, then that balances out the poor sales of products Y and Z. If cybergun didn't add *suitcase* to the trades i'd be more interested. Same with the um are stuff I don't want a calibre 6mm marking on the gun in white. I hate fake markings more than most people. In some cases, it's unavoidable and stipulated by the real steel license holder or by the customs officials for certain regions. When it came time for PTS to produce the Centurion Arms C4 and CMR rails and Fortis rails, I was a huge proponent for putting the "For simulation and training use only" disclaimer in the least aesthetically annoying place as possible. I still recalled bitterly Madbull's "for airsoft only" markings on the side of their rails for everyone to see. At the end of the day it was decided that the bottom of the PTS rails near the receiver nut was the best compromise. The magpul stuff... legally they shouldn't be able to get away with blocking things like the aeg mags unless they have a trade dress registration ala glock. Legally, if someone produced an exact copy of the AEG mags and removed the Magpul, PMAG and PTS markings (which are all protected) it'd be a lot harder for Magpul to dispute. That said, it doesn't stop a real steel company from trying to dispute what they may perceive to be an infringement regardless of actual legality. And when you have deep enough pockets to sue everyone regardless of legal merit, you still have the ability to financially destroy other companies just through legal fees alone. Some companies can absorb those costs, most can't. Link to post Share on other sites
paranoiddroid Posted June 2, 2015 Report Share Posted June 2, 2015 That's how magpul has attempted to kill off at least one polymer mag maker. Similarly they just buy companies and fail to release the bought ip Link to post Share on other sites
uscmCorps Posted June 3, 2015 Report Share Posted June 3, 2015 Are you referring to Magpul, or PTS? Link to post Share on other sites
Habakure Posted June 3, 2015 Report Share Posted June 3, 2015 That's how magpul has attempted to kill off at least one polymer mag maker. Similarly they just buy companies and fail to release the bought ip Are you referring to Magpul, or PTS? Pretty sure para said magpul Link to post Share on other sites
NeoVeNoM Posted June 4, 2015 Report Share Posted June 4, 2015 THere are at least a few good points about Umarex. 1 they work with quality manufacturers 2. the have a marku true, but on a 400USD VFC they sell it retail at around 450. while CG takes a 100USD ACM and easily wants to double the price in reatail. 3. their trades are much less worse. But instead of negativity, maybe we should calculate how much each one of us needs to invest to have a 51% share over CG, then turn the business they way it is meant to be. Link to post Share on other sites
kazhel Posted June 4, 2015 Report Share Posted June 4, 2015 I looked at that idea a little while ago actually. CG total stocks are around 24.5 million shares Trades at around .34 to .35 in local currency which is either francs or euros Total daily trades are around 750,000 shares They have zero cash on hand They lost 34.5 million last year and lost 54 million the year before. The best idea they had to expand market share was estimated at 800K At daily trade volumes it would take about 17 months to buy a 50% share in the company, a rough estimate. That's assuming you bought every share that was offered on every single trading day. But doing so would drive up the stock price considerably. It taking so long you would have to cover CG's loses for the year (This based on my knowledge of USA stock policies mind you...). If that payment was poorly timed it could be 18 million or more . At this point CG is a zombie company that will die a slow death. So let it, they will annoy you for a few more years but they'll go away in the long run. They have no concert plan for returning to profitability and not much time to do it. If Cg is smart they would declare bankruptcy, shut down the company, sell the airsoft IP to a licensing firm, split the sporting firearms division into a new company and simply try again. If they wanted to they could do what they do now and have a house brand but they would need to have both a sportline and a proline like G&G does. It would bring balance to the almost random manufactures they use ranging from Cyma to Kingarms. I actually own a cyber gun AEG, the Galil they put out some years ago. The quality was spotty. Far to many grub screws, the polymer grip makes a little noise every so often, over priced by about 80-90 USD,and the internals are acceptable. But it is accurate with decent range and is quite sturdy really. The fire rate is comparable to my Classic Army when it runs on 9.6V battery and the Galil is on a 8.4v battery. Off topic question for the Corps: If Magpul is still willing to airsoft Masadas does this mean there might be a rerelease of the Magpul aeg's? Link to post Share on other sites
hitmanNo2 Posted June 4, 2015 Report Share Posted June 4, 2015 France hasn't had Francs for 13 years so it will be Euros. Link to post Share on other sites
dapprman Posted June 4, 2015 Report Share Posted June 4, 2015 Cybergun trading figures today : Bid 0.34 Ask 0.34 Price 0.34 Previous 0.34 Change 0.00 (0.00%) Last Trade Trading Vol. 0 Today's High Today's Low 52 Wk Low 0.23 (16/10/2014) 52 Wk High 0.71 (05/06/2014) 52 Wk Change -0.37 (-52.02%) 4 Wk Volume 11,514,291 ISIN Number FR0004031839 Currency EUR Looking at a 5 year graph they've been in a steep decline since late 2011 when it was trading at ~€11.80 per share. Price near bottomed out ~2nd quarter 2013 and then has been slowly dropping since. Basically not even worth a risky punt. Link to post Share on other sites
paranoiddroid Posted June 5, 2015 Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 I'm referring to magpul and the way they use legal action as a weapon in a similar way to glock. Link to post Share on other sites
Katotaka Posted June 6, 2015 Report Share Posted June 6, 2015 I'm referring to magpul and the way they use legal action as a weapon in a similar way to glock. AFAIK, IP related law in the States REQUIRES IP holder / owner to "attack" could-be-infringing parties, in order to stay being the owner of his own IP. Link to post Share on other sites
airsoftmatthias Posted June 7, 2015 Report Share Posted June 7, 2015 Some people have argued that an AEG MIAD and AEG mags should be exempt. I made the same argument. The problem is that US Customs simply don't have the manpower and education to carefully discriminate what should and shouldn't work for real steel. They were always happy with PTS as it was a long established relationship even prior to the formation of PTS. They actually had a stake in PTS. PTS made them a lot of money as the majority of profits went back to Colorado. However the unlicensed counterfeits were affecting the Magpul brand and domestic bottom line. The decision to stop all Magpul airsoft licensing was a difficult one to come to terms with on both sides due to the past history and investment in PTS as a partner. Magpul felt it was in their best interests to cease all production of the airsoft counterparts so as to make an unequivocal message to US customs that anything entering the US territory even remotely resembling Magpul products should be considered counterfeit. Did it work? Not really. The unlicensed copies continue to proliferate the second hand market and gun shows in the US. Sales of counterfeit Magpul products outside the US has been difficult to control due to differing legal systems and working within them is difficult for Magpul's US attorneys insufficiently familiar with international laws. It was far easier to a degree (and less financial legal burden) for Magpul when PTS was doing all the heavy lifting regarding Copy/IP rights. How this will pan out for them is anyone's guess. But to their credit, they do have a broad stroke legal brush with US Customs to say block anything from coming into the US (when it is discovered and intercepted in transit) that may resemble their products on any level and could be legally contested. I heard a rumor that Magpul might partner up with PTS again on a few products within the next few years. Based on what you wrote, this rumor makes sense since it would be more profitable for Magpul to license PTS products, and then have PTS worry about the licensing rights for airsoft products. The demand for airsoft-compatible Magpul products is still very high, so a renewed agreement with PTS would simply net Magpul more profit while relieving them of the counterfeit product issues. Link to post Share on other sites
scorch Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 There are a few Magpul airsoft products I'd be all over like white on rice if only they existed. Namely a drop in MOE stock for the TM 870, or a VSR compatible Hunter700 stock. Link to post Share on other sites
Geri Posted June 10, 2015 Report Share Posted June 10, 2015 Oooww you rost some mirrion euros? What you going to do now clllyyy? If audi, mercedes and bmw couldnt enforce their copirights in asia, the will never come close to it Link to post Share on other sites
paranoiddroid Posted June 10, 2015 Report Share Posted June 10, 2015 The new 1022 stock is pretty hot as well. Link to post Share on other sites
renegadecow Posted June 11, 2015 Report Share Posted June 11, 2015 Wait, if Cybergun is about to go belly up that means WE'LL FINALLY SEE THAT WE GBB P90 FOR SALE! Link to post Share on other sites
ED-SKaR Posted June 11, 2015 Report Share Posted June 11, 2015 Wait, if Cybergun is about to go belly up that means WE'LL FINALLY SEE THAT WE GBB P90 FOR SALE! And that Tommy gun might not have hideous markings! Seriously, how do ciberfail have trademarks to a gun made in 1917? Link to post Share on other sites
QQexDERA Posted June 11, 2015 Report Share Posted June 11, 2015 Oooww you rost some mirrion euros? What you going to do now clllyyy? If audi, mercedes and bmw couldnt enforce their copirights in asia, the will never come close to it Falcon Industries and Magpul PTS successfully won a lawsuit against Classic Army in HK back in 2007, so never say never. It all depends on how much money they've got to chuck at the issue. Link to post Share on other sites
intinerious Posted June 12, 2015 Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 Falcon Industries and Magpul PTS successfully won a lawsuit against Classic Army in HK back in 2007, so never say never. It all depends on how much money they've got to chuck at the issue. Where'd you hear that news? I can't find it on the Judiciary database. Just curious about the case itself. Link to post Share on other sites
QQexDERA Posted June 12, 2015 Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 http://www.airsoftnews.eu/news.php?id=895#.VXpUvVJ4XCQ Link to post Share on other sites
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