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The Chef

WE MP5k "Apache" - Initial Impressions.

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My own little review, copied over from the KGB website.

 

 

 

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I've always been a fan of the 'Kurz'. Don't ask me why, because I generally don't like MP5's on the whole.
 
I've always been a fan of gas guns, again don't ask me why because generally they are a pain, full of inconsistency, leaky mags, seals etc etc.
 
So why on earth would I ever want to get a gas MP5??
 
 
Well, after having both a Kurz AEG and the gas Maruzen MP5k (and the Well one), and thoroughly enjoying both of them despite their foibles, it seemed only logical.
 
I'd been waiting for the WE 5k for a while since our resident "Gas Deviant" Kenny mentioned there was one coming out.
And when one came up at a bargain price, I just had to take the plunge.
 
 
So... as with all reviews, we have to mention the box (don't ask me why?).
It's sturdy, box like and has a picture of an Apache Helicopter on the front. Tick!
 
 
The Kurz itself. 
It's a weighty beast for it's size, and this is due to it's steel and polymer construction. No cheap *albatross* monkey metal around here! (not on the outside at least).
The upper receiver and mag well are tidily made from pressed steel with some very neat weld lines and decent markings. The foresight detailing is crisp and the rear sight is nice and functional. The steel cocking handle is nice and sturdy and operates with a suitable clunk. There is the obligatory sling loop on the rear.
The lower receiver is made from a good quality polymer that feels robust. It has a very good finish with no noticeable seam lines or imperfections. The ambidextrous fire sectors are in the "Navy" style and it rotates smoothly between the 'safe, semi, 3 round burst and auto' marks.
The fore grip is made from the same polymer and is nice and tight.
It's held together with steel pins and strips in the same fashion as the real Kurz.
 
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I haven't really done an inspection of the innards at this point.
 
The Hop is adjusted via a knurled ring underneath the fore grip. Simple and effective. My understanding is that it uses a VSR style rubber, which only bodes well (not had chance to confirm this yet).
 
IMG_1867.jpg
 
No complaints at this point... 9/10.
 
Magazines.
I only have the standard 30 rounders at the moment.
They are made from metal and like all gas mags are nice and weighty.
There is no feed port, so it's reloaded through the top, which can be a bit of a pain in the backside. The spring is good and powerful, which only makes reloading them even more of a pain.
Now, there are a couple of funny levers on the outside of the magazine, which are there to serve the 'stop firing on empty' function. It would appear as though this needs to be reset each time it is loaded otherwise you end up with a 'dead mans click' even with a fully loaded magazine (I'll demonstrate this later). So this in my opinion is a bit of a bind, and could be designed better. Also, as it stick out proud from the back of the magazine, it could easily be inadvertently switched whilst getting the magazine out of a pouch and if you don't check it before putting it in the mag-well, well.... You know where that leads!
 
IMG_1860.jpg
 
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Also a couple of the mags were leaky already. Whilst this doesn't surprise me, it is a mild annoyance.
 
So. Mags, solidly made, design could possibly be better, better seals wouldn't go amiss. 5/10
 
Firing...
Insert the Magazine with the bolt held open. Click the bolt release home with a satisfying clunk and you're ready to rock and roll.
I've filled the mag full with from a fresh can of Propane. The temp outside was pretty cold (about 5 degrees) and non of the mags or gas had been pre-heated prior to testing.
The Kurz fires with a nice snappy report and the recoil, whilst good, isn't massive. Suitable but not overwhelming.
 
I haven't had chance to measure the range or crono it yet, but anyone who knows my garden will be able to judge. It fired quite nicely from my Garage to out the top of the garden into the woods beyond (easily) (approx 40m). The hop was still a little aggressive on 0.25's even in it's fully off position and floated them up a touch. No biggy as it may settle down, or I just use a slightly heavier ammo.
For a Barrel length that is as long as a cigarette, the accuracy was surprisingly good with it flying straight and true (apart from the over hop).
 
3 Round Burst. Probably the best function of this little gun. Superb. A Faultless 'clack clack clack' spitting out three beebs in quick succession. The rate of fire isn't as mental as the Maruzen Kurz, but still good enough.
 
Full auto. As you'd expect. Keep the trigger down to empty the mag in no time what so ever.
There was an element of 'cool down' when firing the burst in quick succession or the full auto. From a fresh fill in cold weather, I managed to squeeze out about 2/3rds of the mag before I suffered cool down. After leaving the mag for a while, I was able to empty a whole mag, but only just. Warmer weather and a bit more 'mag preparation' is probably going to be the order of the day.
This is really only to be expected though, it is a GAS gun after all. They have their foibles, and you have to learn to live with them.
 
 
This is what happens when you don't flick the lever on the back of the bag before putting it in!
 
 
Initial impressions.
The 5k is a neat little compact primary. It's well built and superbly detailed (despite the slight skew on the mags that people have pointed out). It feels great in the hand and functions as it should. The slightly over complicated mag stop system may prove to be a little annoying unless you can really get into the habit of checking them before they go in, and making sure the bolt is open before inserting a new mag.
So this is not for the drill sloppy or the spray and pray merchants. It really is a 'professionals' item. It will require work and attention, keeping on top of leaky mags and the such like. And it will require some switched on thinking when using it.
But it fires straight and true, with a good recoil and sound to keep a decent sense of immersion and amusement.
Time will tell how it holds up to skirmishing, and how practical this magazine thing is.
 
at the moment, out of the box... 7/10.

 

Well, decided to do a bit of investigation into this bolt stop doohickey to see what makes it tick, and if there is any way I can make it tick better.

 

So here's the mag top, with the cover retaining screw removed.

 

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And here is the mag with the cover removed.

 

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You can see all the cam levers and how they work and mesh together.

 

And here is the mag with the 'bolt stop' lever removed.

 

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As you can see at the 7 o'clock position there is a tiny spring, that has an equally tiny ball bearing that sits in it. This locates in two recesses on the back of the lever as it moves up and down. Either keeping it in the 'up' position, or the 'down' position.

 

It's not strong enough to keep it in the down position if you inadvertently flick it up, the same as if it was dragged out of a pouch. Which is my cause for concern.

 

 

The whole system is actuated when the BB follower pushes to the top (as you'd expect) and the spring pressure from the BB well, is firm enough to keep this lever in the 'up' position.
The gun fires when the lever is in the DOWN position, and the bolt stops when it goes into the UP position.

 

So, this got me wondering.

 

"is the spring pressure enough to negate the need for the tiny ball bearing??"

 

So I removed the ball bearing and sure enough without it, the lever is free to move up and down quite nicely. With no BB's in the mag, the follower pressure is sufficient to keep the lever in the 'UP' position.

So I tried a little experiment.

 

I loaded some BB's and left the lever UP. Just adding BB's wasn't sufficient to allow the lever to fall down into the DOWN position all by itself.

So I loaded the BB filled mag into the gun with the lever in the UP position and then took it back out.

The bolt stop lever on the inside of the gun itself has enough pressure to push the lever downwards when the mag is inserted.

 

So I repeat the process and load the mag with the lever up and pull the trigger. She FIRES!

 

"We're onto a winner here" thinks I.

 

So I proceed to empty the mag... 

It dry fires...

 

"B.u.gger" thinks I.

 

Thinking it might be a problem with the mag I reassemble it with the ball bearing and try again. Bolt stops on empty.

 

Hmmmmm.

 

(process is tried a few times to see if the above results are consistent... they are).

 

 

My conclusion is that the overly large BB follower in the top of the BB channel sticks up so far that when the bolt comes forward it is being pushed down ever so slightly by the loading nozzle, sufficiently so, that the pressure on the BB follower spring is released just enough that the bolt stop lever can push the little lever on the back of the mag down enough as it cycles to make the system inoperative.

 

I think that IF the BB follower was of the type that sat off to one side such as you'd find in a Hi-Capa magazine, such as the loading nozzle does not exert any pressure on the follower when in the forward (empty) position. Then my little mod would work perfectly.

 

And thus negate the need for having to remember to flick down the little lever each time you load in a new mag.

 

 

I've yet to go ripping apart the top of the mag lip to get at the follower to see if it can be modified to see whether my idea has any credence.

I'm probably going to see if I can obtain a spare BB follower from WE so I can mod it and see if this works.

 
 
 

well...

 

Finally skirmished mine in CQB today.

 

 

Absolutely awesome!

 

Yes, the mag catch thing can catch you out if you're not well on top of it as you install a new mag. Yes the mag catches can get knocked down when pulling it out of the mag pouch. Mine are fairly loose, so I didn't have too much of a problem with it. But it is worth noting, and in my opinion it's something WE should look to remedy.

It's not as disastrous as you might think, and I think I only suffered about two mag 'clicks' throughout the entire day.

There has to be an easy fix.

We tried taking a tiny bit off the top of the follower, and yes it works with my mod that I mentioned before, but the downside is that it leaves a round in the chamber. Not too much of an issue if you can remember to cock the gun before putting in a fresh mag.

 

 

But that said. Baring in mind it's pretty cold today. It fared very well. 
The three round burst works like a charm, the full auto is sweet as a nut. I'd say it struggles to empty a full mag before gassing out. Probably won't be an issue in warmer temperatures, but in the depths of winter, it's something to be aware of.

 

The recoil is sturdy and gives a positive amount of feedback. Certainly has a very nice feel to it.

Coupled with a nice shoulder harness the pointability of this thing is perfect.

 

The range is pretty good, and having had the chance to crono this on Propane, it's running closer to 340-350fps than the advertised 300-310. I still had it over-hopping ever so slightly on 0.25's. But that didn't matter due to the ranges in CQB.

 

I scored a number of very good kills and was able to sweep up opposition very nicely, even against the AEG Hi-Cap crowd.

 

I can confirm it is a VSR style hop rubber, although WE have used their own, with a slightly different nub, closer to an A+ style square nub.
So that bodes well.

 

All in all, I've had a damned fine day, very enjoyable with some very good results.

 

Very pleased with this little Kurz.

few little things that could be improved upon. But then isn't that always the case.

 

 

 

 

Well, had a couple of the long 50 round mags turn up...

 

Not much to say about them beyond the standard smaller mags. They're longer, and hold more rounds.

 

Work in exactly the same fashion, made from the same stuff. Bit leaky to start off with, but disappeared with a bit of oil.

 

 

I've also got myself a folding PDW stock, and with a little modification it will be able to fit the standard K backplate.

Will need two hold drilling for bolts, and the inner bolt brake will need a tiny bit of modification.

 

Still think it's bleddy awesome.

 
 
 

After a few hours cogitation and a bit with the dremel....

 

She's now a PDW.

 

(ignore the cheapy red-dot. needed something in a hurry).

 

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A quick skirmish update.

I have to report that it doesn't like getting wet. And I'm not talking a splash of rain here.... I'm on about up to your nadgers, swimming on land kind of wet.

The Kurz got a bit of a drenching at the weekend and the hop didn't like it. Still fired... but was all over the place.

 
 
Easily sorted when all the water was taken out... Still fires exceptionally well for such a small barrel.
 
 
After a few weeks use..
 
I'd still give it a 7 out of 10

 

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Nice review Chef, thanks for reposting it, keep your updates flowing. I always prefer a succinct and practical review like yours to ones that go on with themselves.

 

hopefully the good turn out of the K will transcribe over to the A3 version (or whatever the folding stock variant is known as these days) when it's released.

Most initial reviews of the apache seem very positive, wish I'd waited rather than picking up the WE/New wave super rice 7 (etc) MP7, as although it's well made externally it has issues and I'm not satisfied I could skirmish it at the moment as you have with the Mp5k. Time will tell, but once I pick up a WE mp5a3 I'm certain I'll find the mp7 as a redundant purchase.

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Absolutely love this thing. I just wish it weren't so expensive. If only getting a gun the third of the size of an AR meant a third of the price...

 

If a good recoil kit came out for it, however, I'd have a hard time resisting. I'd love to see the three round burst really give some sharp muzzle climb. Also, would love to see one of these with an SEF trigger group and an SP89 handle-less grip. There's something awesomely old school about how they look in that configuration.

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got an A2 this week, just got back from my first game with it, I absolutely LOVE it, the new design we Hopups really shoot accuratley, the gun itself is very nice and loud, and feels great, theres nothing I dont like about it so far

Edited by TnL

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Hope you guys don't mind, I wrote up a little something about my WE MP5A3 Apache when I got it this week. Wall of text and photos incoming: 
 

f71xbkW.jpg
 
Ever since WE announced that they were making a gasblowback version of the MP5, I have been awaiting the chance to grab one. Finally, a local retailer managed to get one in stock. While it's not exactly the model I had in mind (had a UMP folding stock instead of the traditional stock) it's still close enough to what I wanted, and got it and two extra 45 round magazines. 
 
unehNRL.jpg
 
EXTERNALS
 
The externals of the WE MP5 is good enough for most people, though people looking for an exact replica with accurate markings may be turned off by the WE MP5. The MP5 that WE replicated is the Navy version, with the ambidextrous fire control selector.
 
TrpVcM5.jpg
 
The WE MP5 has 3 fire modes - single, full and 3 round burst. There's a caliber marking on the left side of the magwell...and that's it. There are no other markings on the gun. It's also important to note that the markings for the fire mode look painted on, which isn't the case for the real gun.
 
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On the real example, it's engraved on then painted over. 
 
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The body of the real MP5 is made from stamped steel, and apparently this is also true for the WE MP5, though I'm not exactly sure what kind of steel they used for the gun. Many external parts of the gun are made from steel, which include the front and rear sights, the three lugs at the muzzle of the gun, as well as the pins on the body.
 
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The cocking handle is not steel, probably aluminum though there's a chance it might be pot metal (so I'd recommend not HK slapping the ###### out of it if you can help it).
 
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The magazine release is typical HK, meaning it's a paddle magazine release.
 
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There's a button on the right side that you can also press to release the magazine. 
 
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There are some things that I've noticed on the overall build of the WE MP5. First, the diopter sight on the back is weird in that if you try to adjust it, it will unscrew itself. Obviously this isn't how the real thing works, and is very annoying to say the least. There's also a bit of play on the cocking handle when it's in the forward position (around 2mm or so), but it does not affect performance. The selector switch, apparently also has a fifth position.
 
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Full
 
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Burst
 
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Single
 
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Safe
 
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Derp (extra safe?)
 
I have no idea why the selector is able to swing to this position (this is a brand new gun) but the good news is that the gun does not fire in this position. I just consider it a more retarded version of safe. 
 
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The magazines are pretty heavy, hold 45 rounds and have an open front that shows you how many BBs you still have. Before realism fanatics start lighting their torches and pitchforks (which a lot of you have already done because of the magazine angle) there's another version of the magazine with a closed front which has a magazine capacity of 30 rounds.
 
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Also, the magazine well on the WE MP5 is too tight, which means that however carefully you insert the magazine into the gun, it will scrape paint off the top. Like mentioned earlier in the thread, the magazine uses WE's AK mechanism to stop the gun from firing when the last round leaves the gun. 
 
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INTERNALS
 
To open the gun up, you'll need to remove the two pins on the body to release the folding stock and the lower receiver.
 
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Once you open it up, you'll see a secondary spring, the recoil spring, a plastic rod that goes over the recoil spring and the bolt itself.
 
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Looking at the FCG, it has a passing resemblance to the real MP5 trigger group, including the shape of the hammer.
 
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I'm a bit concerned about the hammer because of this, because it's guaranteed to be the same material that WE used on the WE AK74U, and we all know just how that turned out (there's already wear marks on mine). Hopefully if this part breaks, there will be aftermarket parts available later on to replace it (steel or otherwise). To put it back, you just have to reverse the process, though there's a little trick to get the bolt in the gun in a way that will allow the FCG to close properly. Put the bolt in halfway, put the FCG in and then completely push the bolt into battery before putting the stock back on.
 
HOP ADJUSTMENT
 
To adjust the hop, you simply take out the front handguard and rotate the dial located where the body and the outer barrel meet. This hop adjustment setup is better than most other WE guns, since you have full access to the hop dial and don't have to fiddle with it through a window or whatnot. 
 
 
POWER
 
When I got my full sized WE MP5, it shot around 460 FPS. Obviously this is too high to use at my local site, so I downgraded it using RenegadeCow's nozzle restriction method. I haven't chronoed it yet, but it should now be shooting at around 390-400. 
 
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That's it for now. Haven't really gotten to play with it yet since I got it this week. Will update you guys after the weekend rolls around.
Edited by calbur20

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Thanks for your views on the WE, glad others are talking about it! I'm also after the collapsible stock model, gonna wait for that till I buy but always good to hear how it performs. Let us know how you get on with shooting!

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I am surprised its been a bit quiet on this front as most of the stuff ive read seem positive. I'm still very tempted by a Kurtz for my next GBBR though.

 

B->

 

I take it as a good sign. When a GBBR performs well the threads seem to not have a lot of people talking about it (exhibit a: VFC MP5). 

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Update on the shooting part: looks like the minimum BB weight that you can use on this is .25s. I've used .25 BBs with the hop off and the shots are relatively straight, so will stick with these for the time being. 

I've also noticed that the MP5 doesn't suffer from terrible BB flight when you fire it in burst or full auto, something that other WE guns with stock hop-ups tend to do. Pretty kick *albatross* gun so far. 

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Yeah most GBBRs require .25g to perform well.  This is because of a number of things.  

 

When a GBBR bolt cycles it returns at such a speed that the BBs momentum often is forced past a soft hop nub/rubber.  And BBs then roll out of the barrel.

 

So to counter that, there are two things the Manufacturers do:

 

- Engineer a constrictor ring before the hop area, stopping the BB with enough force to prevent BB pushing past the hop area.  This however causes inconsistent hop up and general inaccuracy (KSC and some WEs particularly the MP7)

- Use a heavier/harder rubber or hop nub, so the hop is then the main stopping part . This gives good consistency but forces you to use heavier BBs.  (Most WEs, WA, VFC etc)

 

The terrible BB flight could be due to the first reason as above, or as I found recently, it could be due to bolt bounce.  I was fixing a friends WE XM177E2 which had low/high hop/velocity issue, and I fixed it but using a heavy buffer with a moving weight which counteracted the bolt bounce.  Similarly I have a friends VFC M4 which has a drooping full auto problem (power in subsequent auto shots just keeps losing FPS and drooping), that was fixed with the same heavy buffer.

Edited by 3vi1-D4n

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Good point but i think some of your info is a bit off there.

 

Every VFC ive used has had terrible hop consistancy regardless.

 

WEs use VSR rubbers and are also rather soft.

 

The KWA/KSC MP7 stock rubber yes its terrible but once replaced with the Falcon Blue its fantastic.

 

Its an odd thing. My TM P90 stick some .2s in it and its almost usable for a day (guarder black/330fps)

 

However .2s in any of my 4 gas rifles and its useless, total waste of time even trying to use it. (TM vsr rubber/KWA standard 320 - 350fps)

 

.25gs should be the minimum used in anything.

 

.28gs minimum in GBBRs.

 

 

On my phone, my spelling will suck.

Edited by bankz5152

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picked up a PDW over the weekend. quite pleased with it except for a mushy selector switch and the overexaggerated curvature of the magazine means that my hand rubs against the mag while holding the foregrip. other than that its a nifty little gun

 

oh and can confirm that CYMA/JG short RIS mounts will fit

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Finally got to but som DNA on a MP5K-PDW and MP5A4, they are massive, as in they got some heft, the last MP5K I handled waas a plastic marui, this is not plastic, this is F'ing steel and you can't help but notis, 3 round burst sounds so F'ing badass, ok the selector is kinda *suitcase*, way to soft and lacking a nice click, some aftermarket firm better come out with something for that, and the A4 was hitting M120 with 0.25g so they need a NPAS for most CQB games, mags are also heavy, carry 6 and you will feel it :)

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