One Can Never Have Too Much Ammo

[balberoth-the-destroyer]

Oh, so answering an unfounded accusation on one point, and making an entirely different one counts as repetition?

 

The point of what I was getting at is not your pointlessly obvious assertion that "We've also established that morons use both hicaps and locaps and that decent people also use both kinds of mag." in fact I was never saying any such thing (although it is true) because it is irrelevant.

 

My point is about consideration for others, and in no way is what you said related to that issue, and yes, I've made my points, I'm now waiting for responses to them, ones that actually address the subject matter.

 

Frankly, I have no need to "wind my neck in" because I am entirely calm about this issue, I'm merely making a point about how certain play styles affect others.

You however, could do with winding your neck in before you start foaming at the mouth over my posts, at least long enough to read them, once you have, foam all you like, this is a discussion forum after all, but at least foam about something that I actually said.

 

Edit, I hadn't noticed your edit when I posted.

So you do not notice when someone fires at your cover for 20 seconds without letting go of the trigger, you really don't notice that? I guess you play in a remarkably different area to me, because if it was happening, you'd know.

[Filip von Izabelin]

I could tell the difference several times. Before they started shooting at me. You really can hear the rattle of an Hicap before the shooting starts, especially if the guy(or gal) is moving fast, you can hear it from quiet a distance.

[Catman]

Frankly I'm rather insulted by the various references in this thread that hi-caps result in idiotic playing where people just do endless bursts in the vague direction of the enemy. I have 4 M4 hi-caps and will typically use 1000-2000 rounds in a day, as do a lot of people I know. I used to use low-caps, I have 8 M4 lowcaps knocking around - I frankly cannot be bothered with them anymore.

 

Sure I've seen people do constant hosing (a minute burst etc) but they're usually new-ish players and they don't take long to realise it's a pants tactic (and it also costs a lot). It's also funny when they get taken out by one shot, or in once instance it was blindly funny when I saw one guy trying to empty an entire box mag only to see one of my teammates come creeping up behind him and get a knife kill.

 

You can honestly fire off an entire box mag of 5,000 rounds in my direction if you want, it's just a challenge to overcome and it just adds to the flavour. If you didn't hit me with the first few rounds, chances are firing the next million rounds at the cover I'm behind aren't going to do a lot. If you're having real trouble with people spraying shots all over the place then you need to evaluate your tactics a bit.

 

Oh can someone explain to me why hi-caps equals 'paintsoft'? Last time I looked at paintball the guns took ~100 rounds in the hopper and could only fire on semi-auto. Theres some daft reference I'm missing here? I've not touched a paintball gun for a good 10 years.

 

I honestly encourage the newbie players to fire a lot so they get used to the ballisitics of airsoft and this has really helped to reduce the number of false "I hit you/him!" accusations. I also instruct them on suppressive fire techniques that will also gives them a chance to get a kill without wasting all their ammo.

 

I also find it funny that the hi-cap users don't rubbish anyone's choices in mags but a some of the real/low/mid-cap users pounce all over hi-caps. If you're not playing milsim or ammo-limited games then what's the big deal?

 

[creepingfear]

Oh can someone explain to me why hi-caps equals 'paintsoft'? Last time I looked at paintball the guns took ~100 rounds in the hopper and could only fire on semi-auto. Theres some daft reference I'm missing here? I've not touched a paintball gun for a good 10 years.

 

It's normally posted by those that cannot see beyond their own noses. The types that have tunnel vision and cannot see anything beyond that of airsoft. The types that probably spend hundreds of pounds/dollars on gear and guns just so they can prance around and pose like catwalk models in the vain hope they "look like a special forces soldier" and start taking a paddy the moment they've been shot by a newbie with a cheap clone. The types that simply refuse to understand that other people might have differing views or needs other than themselves.

 

I've played against people with Lo-Caps and I have no problem with that whatsoever.

 

I've played against people with Mid-Caps and I have no problem with that whatsoever.

 

I've played against people with Hi-Caps and I have no problem with that whatsoever.

 

I like Hi-Caps and if the whingers who don't like Hi-Caps have a problem with that then thats just tough *fruitcage* *beep*.

[Stealthbomber]

Oh, so answering an unfounded accusation on one point, and making an entirely different one counts as repetition?

 

The point of what I was getting at is not your pointlessly obvious assertion that "We've also established that morons use both hicaps and locaps and that decent people also use both kinds of mag." in fact I was never saying any such thing (although it is true) because it is irrelevant.

 

My point is about consideration for others, and in no way is what you said related to that issue, and yes, I've made my points, I'm now waiting for responses to them, ones that actually address the subject matter.

 

Frankly, I have no need to "wind my neck in" because I am entirely calm about this issue, I'm merely making a point about how certain play styles affect others.

You however, could do with winding your neck in before you start foaming at the mouth over my posts, at least long enough to read them, once you have, foam all you like, this is a discussion forum after all, but at least foam about something that I actually said.

 

I think you're misunderstanding.

I'm asking, politely, that you stop trolling. It's not nice and it's against forum rules. I'm trying to be nice about it cos I think you're a smart guy.

 

Edit, I hadn't noticed your edit when I posted.

So you do not notice when someone fires at your cover for 20 seconds without letting go of the trigger, you really don't notice that? I guess you play in a remarkably different area to me, because if it was happening, you'd know.

Nope cos, as I said, I've never sat there like a shag on a rock waiting to see how long it'd be before the other guy runs out of ammo.

[greg]

Errrrrrrrrr?

 

Emm,

 

Well, I, er put something in resonse to something which has now gone, so it doesn't make any sence, so I've had to remove it!

 

 

Greg.

[balberoth-the-destroyer]

I'm unclear as to what 'trolling' is, but from my point of view I simply stated my opinion, and I can't see how that's against forum rules, I am aware that a few people disagree with me, but there are a few who agree with me too, this is a debate!

 

As for waiting until he runs out of ammo, try just sitting there to see how long he fires for, that's how I noticed it, I heard others firing insanely long bursts and decided to see if it was a common thing, as it turns out it is.

 

The paintsoft reference comes from the fact that paintball is viewed (and advertised) as a less military sort of game, more like Unreal Tournament acted out in real life, it is nothing to do with the ammo capacity and everything to do with the attitude.

[Stealthbomber]

I'm unclear as to what 'trolling' is, but from my point of view I simply stated my opinion, and I can't see how that's against forum rules, I am aware that a few people disagree with me, but there are a few who agree with me too, this is a debate!

Internet 101:

Trolling is the act of posting in an inflammatory or argumentative manner to incite disagreement.

 

For example, let's say somebody posts a thread asking how to fix a KJW USP.

If I posted a reply saying that the KJW USP is the biggest pile of junk in the world and only a total loser would own one and you'd have to be a moron not to know this, that'd be trolling.

 

This thread is NOT a debate. You're mistaken there.

In this thread some people are saying they use hicaps and you, and others, are posting in an inflammatory or argumentative manner in response. That's trolling and it's against the rules.

 

I accept that you may not mean to insult anybody, directly (except Murphy, apparently), but you ARE insulting people who use hicaps by association.

If this was a discussion about violent crime and I was to say "Black people do muggings" I'm sure people would go mental about it.

I can rationalise the statement by saying "I didn't say all Black people commit crimes and I also accept that some White people commit crimes too" but it doesn't remove the inflammatory nature of the original comment.

 

As I said, this is NOT a debate. Nobody here is saying locaps are pointless or that the people who use them are less worthy of respect. Any "debating" is only coming from your side.

We've already established that not all hicap users hose and that locap users also hose.

Some people can't afford a bunch of mags or pouches. Some people use hicaps because they often lose mags. Some people just prefer not to have to change mags.

Suggesting that they're spoiling your fun by playing in a manner that THEY enjoy is selfish and blinkered.

It's like me suggesting that all the opposition should wear Multicam so I can see who's an enemy easily and that spoils my game. So what? Why is it more important for me to have an enjoyable game rather than the guy on the opposing team who also happens to be wearing DPM?

 

Notice how, in this thread, as soon as people mention Hicaps, there'll be an argument about hosing break out within half a dozen posts. For the life of me I can't see why this is. There's just no need for it.

[Murph]

I'm going to ignore half the of the comments I've ready here just so I don't get caught up in some of the bickering...

 

As stated earlier, I use hicaps, and a lot of them. However, the thing is that I know once I start shooting, regardless of how much, every noob and his brother is going to come rushing over because they want to be part of the action. That kind of attention I tend to like to avoid when possible. I like to end fights, not start them.

[balberoth-the-destroyer]

Well ok, fair point, it's not a debate.

I certainly didn't mean any insult by it, I was just trying to make a point, but it seems that a lot of people got awfully defensive awfully quickly, and I certainly did not intend to incite that, it seems to have hit a nerve somewhere, which was not why I posted it, but it's worth looking at why such a violent reaction to a difference of opinion.

 

Suggesting that they are having an effect on my fun is neither selfish nor blinkered, it's a statement of fact.

I am not in any way affecting them with the way I play the game, why exactly should others be allowed to affect me, and more importantly, why am I supposedly in the wrong when I attempt to discuss the imbalance?

 

I guess the issue comes back to this for me:

I wouldn't use a 200,000rd nitrogen rig because I consider it to be unethical to do so when other players do not want to play the game in that manner.

Why don't the SnP brigade and the 15+ hicap kiddies have the same outlook towards other players?

 

For the record, also, I did not insult murph.

 

Your analogy with muggings does not hold, when I originally outlined the correlation between hicaps and SnP I specifically stated that not all hicap users were SnPers, I did say that in my experience 66% were, but that is solely based on my experience in my area.

 

The question it raises, is this:

Why did everyone who uses hicaps get so insulted by me saying it, if they aren't SnPers, why weren't they content in the knowledge that they don't hose everything, why did they feel the need to get so defensive about it?

 

When someone said something about paintsoft I didn't get insulted by the implication that anyone who likes any sort of realistic play is a gear snob, I'm content in the knowledge that I'm not a gear snob, I don't even have matching kit.

 

I just don't get why you lot got so insulted and yet I didn't?

[talon_0315]

However, the thing is that I know once I start shooting, regardless of how much, every noob and his brother is going to come rushing over because they want to be part of the action. That kind of attention I tend to like to avoid when possible. I like to end fights, not start them.

 

.....

 

But part of the fun is ambushing people! With -that much- ammo, I'd stand my ground, laugh evilly, and fire so many BBs throwing whole bags wouldn't match my ROF.

 

Better yet, why not be the FIRST to shoot, and hopefully you'll be the only one shooting.

[Roanix]

I usully go with 5 star 140 round midcaps for my G36. That is more than plenty for me as i have never ran out of ammo. If i am going on a long op I usually take a highcap as reserve in my butt pack.

[Murph]

.....

 

But part of the fun is ambushing people! With -that much- ammo, I'd stand my ground, laugh evilly, and fire so many BBs throwing whole bags wouldn't match my ROF.

 

Better yet, why not be the FIRST to shoot, and hopefully you'll be the only one shooting.

 

 

Oh yes... and ambush them I do... It's just easier to do when people don't know your there, instead of people running into an area they know is hot.

 

However, there was one time I took out a seven man team like that. I was at the end of a ravine, and they came walking down it one by one and as soon as they hit this one turn in it they would walk into my field of fire and there was no cover. Two tried coming over top the curve in the ravine and totally skylined. Needless to say they went down easier then the rest. I took most of them down with a one second burst, but one guy was behind some light bushes so that took a three second burst. They were all approx 30~40 meters away.

[greg]

Bal,

 

Some people are more sensitive than others & if you intend to get the best out of people, you have to be sensitive to that.

 

May I suggest that perhaps you are playing in an inappropriate environment?

 

Perhaps, rather than withstanding the 'imbalance' of the hi-cap-hosers, you could seek out some lo-cap only games or go mil-simming? There are plenty of these types of games around & I'm sure they would be more suited to your style.

 

If a formula 3 driver turned up at a formula 1 race & asked the F1 drivers to respect his choice by keeping the speed down so that he could compete?

 

There is plenty of room in airsoft for all it's facets. Dividing into formulas is hardly excluding minorities.

 

 

Greg

[Counting Count]

I'd rather have lots of BB's and mags with a working gun than have none...but I use both mids and locaps simply as I don't like the rattle...

 

Persoanlly the only time you have too much ammo is when you cant move without sounding like a kids rattle... either due to metal hicaps or 5-6 bags of bb's... or your gun is down...

 

the crazy thing is I on;y own 2 Hicaps... as I don't like them but for times I act in a LMG role I'm getting 2x beta C mags for the G36...how you play is more important than painsoft loosers / hi cr@pper / hardcore whatever arguments you use your hicap as you will... it makes no difference to me as long as you stop shooting when i say I'm hit...

 

Ammunition will get you through times of no courage than courage get tou through times of no ammo...

[greg]

As already pointed out, hi-caps don't rattle if they are empty or filled right to the top.

 

When half empty & in the gun, they only rattle if you shake your gun about!

 

Either way, your choice is respected & you are right, the ammo matters not compared to good sportsmanship.

 

 

Greg.

[Catman]

It's normally posted by those that cannot see beyond their own noses. The types that have tunnel vision and cannot see anything beyond that of airsoft. The types that probably spend hundreds of pounds/dollars on gear and guns just so they can prance around and pose like catwalk models in the vain hope they "look like a special forces soldier" and start taking a paddy the moment they've been shot by a newbie with a cheap clone. The types that simply refuse to understand that other people might have differing views or needs other than themselves.

 

lol, cheers

 

 

Either way, your choice is respected & you are right, the ammo matters not compared to good sportsmanship.

Too true, nothing worse that getting hit with an excessive amount of rounds, only ever happened to me once, the muppet was purposely hitting me and cover in order to keep my teammate who was still alive pinned down.

 

Anyway the only way you can have too much ammo is when you're so loaded up it seriously impeeds your maneuverability - in a lot of the games we play we often end one game and launch into another without going back to the safezone. I lot of players will take a bag of ammo into the field, other like me like to have it all in mags

[Stealthbomber]

Perhaps, rather than withstanding the 'imbalance' of the hi-cap-hosers, you could seek out some lo-cap only games or go mil-simming? There are plenty of these types of games around & I'm sure they would be more suited to your style.

 

If a formula 3 driver turned up at a formula 1 race & asked the F1 drivers to respect his choice by keeping the speed down so that he could compete?

Interesting metaphor.

 

Rather than picking and choosing games, however, I'd simply suggest that hicap and locap users are divided equally amongst the teams at each event.

 

Seems, to me, that if a team has hicap users in it and they are unfairly skewing the flow of play (hard to believe but, meh) then the other side could employ thier hicap users against them.

Alternatively, if a team is so milsim that they don't want hicap users playing on their team then they are hardly in a position to complain when hicaps are used against them.

 

The only other explanation is that what we're really talking about is snobs who simply want to get rid of something they don't approve of.

If this is the case then I guess these people should just go and find milsim games to take part in.

 

However, as others have said (possibly not in this thread), I have actually never met an airsofter I didn't like. In person they've all been decent people with good humour.

I find it hard to believe that the sort of people I've skirmished with would have a problem adapting their team structure or their gameplay to incorporate either hicap or locap users.

It seems, to me, that if overzealous use of hicaps IS a problem where you play then the simplest, and friendliest, solution is simply to divide up those players equally amongst the teams and use them to fight each other as well as, hopefully, allowing other players to teach them a bit of fire control.

[Hewes]

well i use mid caps and lo caps mainly, but if there is cause for it, then i will use high caps

 

a well organised team can provide better suppressive fire with lo caps then some teams can provide with high caps

[rhino]

Do you know how i eventually settled on an amount of mags for a game? Started out by taking a shedload and seeing how i got on. If i started getting irritated by mags being dropped or fumbling around trying to make space for the empties while frantically trying to reload, then i knew that maybe i'd gone overboard. So in the next game i'd leave a couple of mags behind at the safe zone and see how i got on with the new amount. I did this for quite a while until i finally settled on an (average) amount of magazines. I found that i'd be more prone to taking more shotshells than i would be if i were taking say, Famas magazines. I'm quite happy to have a couple of mags (doesn't matter what type - Hi-Cap or other) to hand just in case i get in a heated battle. Nowadays i take 1 Hi-Cap mag, 2 Lo-Cap mags for my primary and a couple of mags for a small backup (pistol or shotgun pending)

[TwinTurboCH]

There is no need for that much ammunition. Even for suppressive fire. At that point you're literally being a jerk. Its completely unnecessary for MilSim. You might want to start playing Paintball.

 

I've pretty much made all of my points in the other thread. No need to restate them here. One last final statement though. The thing about having it, and not needing it. You need to learn to conserve ammunition, thats half of the fun of airsoft. Anyone can put enough downrange to hit something. It takes tactics, aiming, and everything that MilSim. No offense, but I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people refused to play with you if thats what you do.

 

(I am talking to Murph, everyone else your load-outs are fine.)

You know I'm surprised, even for an american you display SHOCKING levels of arrogance and stupidity. Airsoft IS NOT milsim, I don't dig milsim, and i don't know anyone who does. Thats not to say people who enjoy playing milsim aren't out there (they obviously are), and however they enjoy playing is fine with me, I don't impose my views on them and don't judge them for anything about their style of play, as such, I expect them to afford me the same courtesy. For you to sit there and go on about hi-cap users being jerk just makes you look stupid.

 

I carry 5 hicaps for my ak, and 8 hicaps for my M4/M16/M249, I only use AT MOST 6-800 rds per game, meaning I do around 3000 rounds in a day. So what? Everyone at the arena I play at plays in a similar fashion, and no-one suffers for it. No-one does stupid long bursts (marshals will instruct any newbs/numpties doing unnecessarily long burst to instead use 'short and controlled'), in fact, no-one does any of the stuff you say. We just can't see the facination of having to carry a bundle of lo-caps in the name of 'realism'.

 

What will your next pearl of wisdom be? Saying that hi voltage batteries and turbo motors running 25+rps are heresy because it's not 'milsim'? Grow up man. If so, that makes the entire jap airsoft movement a bunch of 'jerks' as you put it because it's not uncommon to run 450+fps and 40+rps.

 

Do yourself a favour, be more tolerant of other people's point of view You'll find it makes adult like much easier when you eventually get there

[happy.al]

Hello,

 

Plenty going on here so I thought I would jump in too

 

I use to really get off firing the guns and had loads and loads of hi-caps, which I pretty much used in every game. Once I got use to it I didn't fire as much, but stilled used hi-caps, I came to the conslusion that firing that much ammo was a waste. The reason I stilled used hi-caps is the same reason why the guy with the UMP still uses them, a hi cap cost teh same as a mid/low cap and it just makes more sense.

 

Now I've bought loads of mid caps, cause they are at a price where they make sense (for the M16 at least), and in a game I usualy take 6 70 rnd mid caps, I've still got ammo to lay down fire if I need it, but have to change mags a little more.

 

Guess what I'm trying to say is if you're in a good team, and work well together there is no need to lay down loads of ammo, but it certainly doesn't ruin anyones game. A new guy will come along, enjoy shooting the guns, gets wasted by the more experienced guys and learns how to fit into the team better. How doe sthat ruin your game?

[screamin_weasel]

another thing that may or may not have been pointed out.

 

i have an ak47 that i built to lend to my mates. i have 2 hi-caps for it, this being for the simple reason i dont have a rig to lend my mates, so they can tape the mags together, or stick one in a pocket, and have more than enough ammo to last a couple of games. how could it possibly be more practical to give my mates a gun and 8 mags when they dont have a rig ?

 

secondly, it could well be a case of simply not having enough room to carry that many mags. i hate to think how much of a mission it is to carry 8 UMP mags or P90 mags.

 

thirdly, it could be a case of, as people have said, a hi-cap costing only slightly more than a midcap, but holding 3 times as much. meaning, you need only to spend a third of the cash for the amount of rounds by getting a hi-cap. admittedly, with the advent of the plastic mid-caps, this point is slightly less important, but still.

 

fourthly, its a shedload easier. you've got 5 minutes to relaod inbetween games. one guy sits there, pours 600 bb's in his ak mag, and is done. the guy with a vest load of mid caps is still faffing about filling his speedloader up. a hi-cap is far more practical.

 

fifthly, not everybody plays milsim. in fact, believe it or not, some peapole actually dont like it they dont want to be delta force seals elite commando ringlickers, perhaps they just want to turn up, and spend teh day shooting people for as little moeny and effort as possible. like my mates who borrow my ak. they've got no extra ###### to carry, no worries about reloading quickly, its perfect.

 

i could probably go on, but you get the point. in all of those instances, can you honestly say somebody doing any of the above instantly deserves to be called a massive, imcompetent twat ?

 

no, i didnt think so.

 

seems some people, most probably of the elite delta seals force type with more money invested in their kit than their car, and 387 lo-caps hanging off them for the sake of realism - in a game played with toy guns no less - need to pull theirs heads out of, most probably eachothers arses, and realise their way isn't the only way, and its certainly not the easiest, cheapest, quickest and simplest way. milsimmers make it hard for themselves on purpose, and its where they get their buzz. others want it easy and simple, and they're happy with that.

 

 

[Stealthbomber]

Erm, fair points made all around but can we try and strive for the "one big happy family" attitude I was trying to point you toward?

[screamin_weasel]

and obviously we all respect eachothers decisions on the matter