XaVierDK Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 wahey, it's the cybergun affair all over again.... cyberbun (or "les 3 pylons" as it was called in the early days), tried the same ###### here to retailers and such when the aqcuired the Colt license iirc. And their ###### was just as bad as the "Umarex" ###### i have seen. no good for nothing scum pushing crappy products on the market. I hope they hit a wall like cybergun did! maybe german retailers can do the same as in the US, and cover up trademarks? as i doubt they can license a shape They have already licensed the design, so basically, all manufacturers are now prohibited from making guns which look like H&K's guns (not their civilian copies, B&T etc)... But there are loopholes... More specifically, they can simply change ONE minor detail, and they can make all the guns they want (just as the chinese manufacturers have been doing with their TM copies) Best Regards Link to post Share on other sites
Guinness Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 I'd add something pithy and compelling but, ....I left my tinfoil hat with my other suit Slainte! Link to post Share on other sites
Victory Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 This coul deven tak eout the GSG5 (.22lr MP5 ) I was hoping to buy later in the year. Same here...damn. -Vic Link to post Share on other sites
PECEMKR45 Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 Actually they dont want to stop anything, if they are at all like Cybergun. Last report I saw, Cyber gun had 80 employees , and 32 of them where lawyers. These peoples business will strictly be litigation. there entire revinue portfolio will be money from lawsuits. Link to post Share on other sites
DesertFoxRomel Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 From the first post, all I see is speculation. Anyone have concrete facts on this? IE news reports, website/ company announcements from their websites, etc? Link to post Share on other sites
FarEast Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 Ok just to clarify, Classic Army and ICS received permission from H&K to reproduce the MP5. Classic Army received permission to make the G36 (One of the reasons why ICS does not have a G36 Range) Also Classic Army secured rights to make B&T MP5's so currently the MP5 range by CA and ICS is safe as is the CA G36 as these were approved by H&K before this went through. Link to post Share on other sites
liquidflorian Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 Ok just to clarify, Classic Army and ICS received permission from H&K to reproduce the MP5. Classic Army received permission to make the G36 (One of the reasons why ICS does not have a G36 Range) Also Classic Army secured rights to make B&T MP5's so currently the MP5 range by CA and ICS is safe as is the CA G36 as these were approved by H&K before this went through. Then why all the litigiousness? Link to post Share on other sites
FarEast Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 As far as i know there is non directed at either of these companies. Link to post Share on other sites
elchinator Posted February 1, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 From the first post, all I see is speculation. Anyone have concrete facts on this? IE news reports, website/ company announcements from their websites, etc? You mean, apart from Umarex' official statement we had to post on our forum? Apart from the "cease and desist" orders german und US retailers received? Apart from the order to remove all HK clones from their stock by the 11th of February? No, I don't think so... As far as i know there is non directed at either of these companies. They probably won't even try that. Cybergun lost in court against Tokyo Marui in Japan. The same could happen with Classic Army in Hong Kong. But Umarex simply doesn't have to bother with them. They actually *can* control the market in Europe and the US to some degree. If they manage to ban all the HK clones from the stores. It's very easy here in Germany, where we can't order directly from Hong Kong. It should be possible in the US by blocking imports by the means of "copyright infringement". Link to post Share on other sites
djl Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 Them's wants ta get ma G36c, them's jes' gonna have to prise it from ma cold, dead hands. And what's more, I'm going to add a fully-traded JG HK416 to my shopping list for when Hong Kong re-opens after the New Year celebrations. So there. Link to post Share on other sites
TXP Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 From what I've been told over the years there have been attempts to obtain licensing from H&K, asgk being the body to try. I think H&K picked Umarex because they're a German company. Actually they picked Umarex because they offered a lot more money than others. Rumors say above 1,000,000 bucks. Link to post Share on other sites
GuzziHero Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 It IS interesting that Im looking at Cyberguns catalogue right now. And page 4, just after 'About Us' and before any product descriptions, is a full page article about counterfeiting law... Plus they have in their product list, full trades, gas powered versions of: Taurus Pt92, Pt99 and 24/7, Sig P220 and Desert Eagle... Link to post Share on other sites
RSP1 Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 Very true. I myself was looking into a KSC USP .45. I'd rather not have my plans FUBAR'd by some Cybergun-alike company. Capitalism: the rape and pillage of our sport and the natural world. If it weren't for capitalism, would airsoft exist? Link to post Share on other sites
seawulfhornblower Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 Actually this is not speculation at all ! Even if UMAREX hasn´t anounced it on their website yet, but their latest news is from march 2007..which might explain a lot.... German Re-tailers have recevied official letters by Umarex and a copy of the HK Licence-Agreement that includes WORLDWIDE Buyouts of all DESIGN and TRADEMARKS for ALL kinds of AIRSOFTS and REPLIKAS. However, I´m sure a big courtyard-battle will soon to be start. One will have to see if they can ban other HK lookalikes from the market, and how these other agremments (we heard of) will be touched or not. (May be they have to pay Buyouts to UMAREX?!) But one can be sure they will try to do everything neccessary to ban any sort of HK product from the worldwide market, they don´t earn any money with..as soon as they can, because they must have paid an awfull lot of money to get these rights. If the can´t stop TMs and CA producing them, they might try to ban imports an reselling and will sue traders and re-tailers. Again, this does definately affect ALL H&K Designs AND Trademarks, except some licencend brands Schwaben Arms and Brugger & Thomet. But let´s not panik. Let´s see what laywers come up with. But it´s probaply worth re-considdering getting a HK soon - if one wants still a good one... for some time Link to post Share on other sites
Perch Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 Hey, they can't sue CA, Classic-Army got the rights of B&T. So there is some kind of loop-hole I think. And I imagine also Systema found they're way round Anyway, I bet they can't stop the rest, there's too much going on ^^ Regarding the full Trademarked SIGs, KJ-Works got the Officia Trademarks, as they are producing training GBBs for SIGArms USA. And the KJ-SIGs are supperior to the the Marui ones! Link to post Share on other sites
seawulfhornblower Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 Hey, they can't sue CA, Classic-Army got the rights of B&T. So there is some kind of loop-hole I think. And I imagine also Systema found they're way round Anyway, I bet they can't stop the rest, there's too much going on ^ But what does this mean in particular ? ...Ok we might have some G3s and MP5s left..but no HK36, P8, UMP etc. Link to post Share on other sites
elchinator Posted February 1, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 Let´s see what laywers come up with. The problem is most shops can't afford to wait for that. They have to decide now, whether to sign the order or go to court. And even if most of the claims by Umarex are pure b***s*** - the legal battle will probably go on for months if not years. And it will cost a fortune. So we can assume that most retailers will bow their heads and remove all the clones, just to be on the safe side. I will certainly NOT buy anything from them anymore. Not, after I heard what they think about the airsoft community. (Of course they wouldn't repeat those words in public so I can't prove it... ) Link to post Share on other sites
seawulfhornblower Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 The problem is most shops can't afford to wait for that. They have to decide now, whether to sign the order or go to court. And even if most of the claims by Umarex are pure b***s*** - the legal battle will probably go on for months if not years. And it will cost a fortune. So we can assume that most retailers will bow their heads and remove all the clones, just to be on the safe side. I will certainly NOT buy anything from them anymore. Not, after I heard what they think about the airsoft community. (Of course they wouldn't repeat those words in public so I can't prove it... ) Well thats up to you . But what have "they" said ? However, re-tailers and manufactures have to find their ways arround it....I can´t see a boykott help to much. It´s a statement by customers but not more in my opinion. Link to post Share on other sites
j3T Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 Can't believe H&K chose such a *suitcasey* company... I just send an email to Umarex, with a small amound of ugly words in it. Link to post Share on other sites
Jagdraben Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 Which and whose law.....Would you expect an American company to abide by Chinese laws? More to the point: The sovereignty of China supersedes treaty agreements they've never made. If Umarex wants to play hardball with the Chinese, they'd best be fast learners, because the Chinese would kick their international rights all the way back to Arnsberg. In any case, I look forward to the Chinese and Japanese following their copyright laws and not abiding by treaties they've never signed. Link to post Share on other sites
elchinator Posted February 1, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 Well thats up to you . But what have "they" said ? Something along the way of "we care a s*** about the airsoft community"... If Umarex wants to play hardball with the Chinese, they'd best be fast learners, because the Chinese would kick their international rights all the way back to Arnsberg. They will probably ignore chinese and japanese manufacturers. They can't do anything about them, as you said. But they can dry out the market in Europe and the US. Link to post Share on other sites
CSC Maverick Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 WOW thats messed up! I dont feel like ranting, ill go for 3pages about this... All I know is Im keeping my g36 no matter what. Link to post Share on other sites
snorkelman Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 do B&T actually have transferable rights? Id have thought giving someone permission to manufacture their own version of the MP5 would be one thing quite another to then allow them carte blanche to sub licence that a zillion times over in turn to whoever they themseleves fancy. Likewise all the oh X agreement doesnt apply to china - surely wether it does or it doent is pretty academic unless you live in china, take the items outof china and its a different story. eg just cos the royal kingdom of umpalumpa has no copyright agreements and firms there can churn out knock off DVDs and CDs of Vista doesnt mean you could legally set up as an importer/distributor of them in the UK where Micosofts copyright does have value. Ultimately if Umarex DO find themselves with the sort of rights they think they have (ie everythign to do with HK firearms other than conventional firearm versions) they might decide just to levy a fee on everyone manufacturing HK airsoft guns - eg why force everyone else out of that business if you can make money off all of their sales in exchange for dooing fook all, if the alternative is to slap them with cease and desist orders to flog some cheapass product of your own (which doesnt sell to the buyers those other manufacturers had who have moved over to buying decent M4s AKs etc rather than a shitey rubber band powered HK replica you're touting). Link to post Share on other sites
NeoVeNoM Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 Isn't this a monopoly? Isn't this against the EU economic rules? In any case, they won't stop me buying from Hong Kong. Link to post Share on other sites
sturgis Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 It IS interesting that Im looking at Cyberguns catalogue right now. And page 4, just after 'About Us' and before any product descriptions, is a full page article about counterfeiting law... Plus they have in their product list, full trades, gas powered versions of: Taurus Pt92, Pt99 and 24/7, Sig P220 and Desert Eagle... heh... those trademarked pistols are POS ######. most likely KWC or korean junk. Actually this is not speculation at all ! Even if UMAREX hasn´t anounced it on their website yet, but their latest news is from march 2007..which might explain a lot.... German Re-tailers have recevied official letters by Umarex and a copy of the HK Licence-Agreement that includes WORLDWIDE Buyouts of all DESIGN and TRADEMARKS for ALL kinds of AIRSOFTS and REPLIKAS. However, I´m sure a big courtyard-battle will soon to be start. One will have to see if they can ban other HK lookalikes from the market, and how these other agremments (we heard of) will be touched or not. (May be they have to pay Buyouts to UMAREX?!) But one can be sure they will try to do everything neccessary to ban any sort of HK product from the worldwide market, they don´t earn any money with..as soon as they can, because they must have paid an awfull lot of money to get these rights. If the can´t stop TMs and CA producing them, they might try to ban imports an reselling and will sue traders and re-tailers. Again, this does definately affect ALL H&K Designs AND Trademarks, except some licencend brands Schwaben Arms and Brugger & Thomet. But let´s not panik. Let´s see what laywers come up with. But it´s probaply worth re-considdering getting a HK soon - if one wants still a good one... for some time Yup, same MO that "Les 3 Pylon" aka Cybergun used to pull. Trying to scare retailers with lawsuits up the wazoo if they don't comply. like snorkelman said, unfortunatly it doesn't mean didly sqat if china or japan doesn't care about copyright infringement and happily keeps on producing if they can't get the damn things into Germany itself In the grand worldy scheme of things, this will mostlikly have no impact on the companies producing things, unless your a German airsofter... I just hope this umarex dissease won't spread over the rest of europe... though cybergun didn't seem to go far with that approach, so their might be hope... Isn't this a monopoly? Isn't this against the EU economic rules? In any case, they won't stop me buying from Hong Kong. hmm, you got me there... might be a route worth looking into, allthough i'd imagine any licensing scheme would be made up in a way so that it can't be stung by such a charge? then again, what do i know, i'm no lawyer... Link to post Share on other sites
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