Magpul Masada thread

[Pariah_WP]

Me, personally, I will go with the MagPul if they are quality. I have already sunk a lot of money into their real steel products because they are fantastic. They are worth every penny! Now if the MagPul AEG comes out and it isn't top notch then I might not buy one. I will still likely not get the clone though. My reason is that I feel, personally, that MagPul has served me and my boys well in the RS department. They have always made top notch kit. I feel I would be slapping them in the face if I bought the clone (ACM not from PTS) from their competitor. That is my personal choice and really it is just an honor thing. It doesn't need logic. It just needs to feel like the right thing to do.

 

That said, I will be REALLY unhappy if the airsoft falls short of something like Tokyo Marui quality after a wait this long. Jing Gong, VFC or someone else more established in the Chinese market could have put out something decent far long ago. This is starting to border on ridiculous as far as waiting goes. I know the real steel was not in the bag when PTS started development, but they could have build a shell system and then made the cosmetic furniture when the dust settled. That is my thinking anyways.

 

[Maple-Leaf]

Well, in defence of MagPul - it wouldn't have made much sense to have a PTW version on sale when the RS version wasn't finalised and in production yet.

 

Judging by all their other airsoft kit, I don't think we'll be disappointed by the quality. The big question I have now is just whether I buy a MagPul Masada/ACR or a King Arms SIG556 as my choice of STANAG tactical carbine. Decision will be heavily be heavily influenced by price, quality and whether its available in flat dark earth coloured finish.

 

Just my 2 cents worth....

[The Thief Lord]

Not sure if this has been said, but to all those wondering about quality, I wouldn't be worried. Systema IIRC paired with Magpul in order to make an airsoft replica, so quality shouldn't worry you, unless you're one of those people BEGGING for a new hopup (PTW owners know what I mean). Chances are the materials (externally) are the same as the real steel, OR they may go the same route as they did with the PMAG's, meaning it'd be made of plastic. Either way though, I would expect quality from Magpul.

[beretta]

Quality, yes...

 

But imagine the price tag on the thing. for what it will cost it better well be an innovation and step forward in airsoft design. if they are using technology like systema are doing, with the revolution gearbox etc then the gun will have its appeal and a market, but if they build just another AEG then i wouldnt go near it when you can pick up a high quality Clone for little money.

 

I also wonder if magpul PTS will be making a Masada or the modified ACR version. I think the original Masada design looks a lot better than the Bushmaster ACR.

[Gigueand]

I think it is a bit soon to speculate on the quality or cost of an as yet not in production replica.

 

MagPul remains largely uncommitted to building their PTS. They have stated that they intend do build one, have shown some CAD-style drawings and little else. A functional prototype would represent committment on a level that we have not yet seen. This protoype, however, does not appear forthcoming.

 

A better use of our time, rather than speculating on an unreleased product, would be to evaluate the current ACM Masada which, by many reports, is a superb product with excellent quality externals.

[appslapp]

tested today, and I am really pleased, just need a new hopuprubber and spacer to match my other aegs.

[beretta]

Have you looked at the hopup rubber thats in it as standard? its a unique grooved one, ive never seen anything like it in a clone before, its also pretty soft compared to most clones.

I installed a Gaurder in my own one aswell as a madbull barrel. It could pick eyes from a fly at 30 meters.

Thanks to the exceptional air seal on these the power is really consistant too.

[watase]

Except that clone companies like JG aren't charging a premium for a clone.

 

You're implying that the cost of PTS should be less because its a clone..

 

BUT, JG doesn't pay royalties like PTS does. For all we know it might be $20 on top of the cost of the unit sold.

[Spartan452]

You're implying that the cost of PTS should be less because its a clone..

 

BUT, JG doesn't pay royalties like PTS does. For all we know it might be $20 on top of the cost of the unit sold.

 

the real Magpul CTR cost 97usd... why pay 97 for a clone?

[aznriptide859]

Do clone CTR stocks even exist?

 

Some of Magpul's prices are a bit pricey, but they do have their qualities.

[Spartan452]

Do clone CTR stocks even exist?

 

Some of Magpul's prices are a bit pricey, but they do have their qualities.

 

Yeah, they go under the brand of Magpul PTS

 

you guys do know that Magpul PTS is NOT the same as Magpul.

 

PTS is licensed by Magpul to sell Magpul lookalike products (clones/replicas) for the airsoft market. They maybe quality clones, but i'd rather buy the real thing for the cost of what they are charging.

 

I don't think PTS uses the same materials as the real magpul items, they use "off the shelves polymer" but i'm pretty sure it is not the same polymer as the real Magpul stuff

[aznriptide859]

But who is PTS made by?

[Mega12]

But who is PTS made by?

after reading through all of this, which you should also do. I think magpul pts is just another company that licenses cloned products, like madbull, it seems that they also treaten other companies that clone magpul stuff. 

 

 

[watase]

the real Magpul CTR cost 97usd... why pay 97 for a clone?

 

 

I see you're in the States, so you wouldn't have this problem.

 

I don't live in the States, so I cannot order CTR's from American companies, as they are export restricted. From the suppliers here that I can get them from, the price is of course going to be higher. I don't know for the CTR, but a UBR in the States is what, $280 something? Here, the cheapest I've ever seen was like $400+

 

I think you see where I'm going..

 

I don't really have another choice but the clones :/

 

(Plus I wasn't trying to say that the real deal wasn't the same price, just that a licensed clone still has royalties (R&D/trademark licensing etc.), where as non licensed (JG in this case) does not, and therefore will be cheaper).

[Spartan452]

I see you're in the States, so you wouldn't have this problem.

 

I don't live in the States, so I cannot order CTR's from American companies, as they are export restricted. From the suppliers here that I can get them from, the price is of course going to be higher. I don't know for the CTR, but a UBR in the States is what, $280 something? Here, the cheapest I've ever seen was like $400+

 

I think you see where I'm going..

 

I don't really have another choice but the clones :/

 

(Plus I wasn't trying to say that the real deal wasn't the same price, just that a licensed clone still has royalties (R&D/trademark licensing etc.), where as non licensed (JG in this case) does not, and therefore will be cheaper).

 

Well if you lived in america, would you still buy the PTS stuff?

 

It is pretty sad that your only able to get the knock offs when I can get the real deal for the same price... I feel bad for you. Well as long as PTS isn't screwing me or my fellow americans, i'm fine with them overcharging as much as they want, since it doesn't affect me.

 

Like you said, you don't have a choice, but I do...

[PlasticMag]

Do clone CTR stocks even exist?

 

 

Yes. I have one.

[watase]

Well if you lived in america, would you still buy the PTS stuff?

 

It is pretty sad that your only able to get the knock offs when I can get the real deal for the same price... I feel bad for you. Well as long as PTS isn't screwing me or my fellow americans, i'm fine with them overcharging as much as they want, since it doesn't affect me.

 

Like you said, you don't have a choice, but I do...

 

 

If I lived in America then no, of course I wouldn't get the PTS stuff if it was the same price. But I, as many people on this site, dont really have any other option unless we want to spend almost double on the real stuff.

 

You feel bad for me? I don't mind the PTS stuff, its not like my life depends on this equipment.

[uscmCorps]

It is pretty sad that your only able to get the knock offs when I can get the real deal for the same price

Clarification... Magpul PTS products aren't "knock offs", they're fully licensed replicas. There's a world of difference there.

 

I've bought both Magpul PTS and RS Magpul products and I find the PTS products to be equally as robust as my RS products. For me, I live in the US so when given the option (like with stocks and handguards), I buy RS Magpul products because I save a lot on S&H. However if I didn't live in the US, I would have zero hesitation over buying the PTS equivalent product. The PTS stuff is hardly inferior for our airsoft uses. I'd be really surprised if anyone using the parts for airsofting found any performance difference between the PTS and RS Magpul products.

 

The Magpul PTS Mid-cap PMAGs are an excellent example of how good the PTS products are. Yes they're not cheap. They're also not made in the same production numbers as the RS ones are. That said, they are the best Mid-caps I've ever bought (and I've bought all of the brands out there). Even better than my S.Arms Mid-caps. I'd rather spend a little more on something that I have to buy once, than spend less and buy it three or four times.

 

Another example is the Gen 2. Magpul PTS MIADs (the current ones with the swap-able front and back straps). By far the most comfortable and modularly adjustable grip on the market (IMHO). There is no RS equivalent that would work with a regular Version 2 setup. No, they're not cheap, but like the PMAGs, they're not made in the same quantities as the RS one is, and I know that I'll only have to buy it once.

 

Regarding the MOE handguard, aside from the export issue of the RS version, one pro for the PTS version is that it is designed to accommodate a battery which wouldn't be possible with the RS one. Other than that, you're getting the same performance between the RS and PTS version.

[NeoVeNoM]

Well if you lived in america, would you still buy the PTS stuff?

 

It is pretty sad that your only able to get the knock offs when I can get the real deal for the same price... I feel bad for you. Well as long as PTS isn't screwing me or my fellow americans, i'm fine with them overcharging as much as they want, since it doesn't affect me.

 

Like you said, you don't have a choice, but I do...

 

It's pretty sad that you do not know the difference between a licensed product for airsoft use and RS products. I guess you label all your airsoftguns as knock offs as well then.

 

And regarding the price of PTS parts. there are other airsoft manufacturers who actually make knock offs (as in illegally copied) and ask a lot more for less quality.

[Spartan452]

It's pretty sad that you do not know the difference between a licensed product for airsoft use and RS products. I guess you label all your airsoftguns as knock offs as well then.

 

And regarding the price of PTS parts. there are other airsoft manufacturers who actually make knock offs (as in illegally copied) and ask a lot more for less quality.

 

I was talking specifically about PTS products. Sorry for using the term knock off which implied it as a horrible copy. However, it is still replica, that is fact, why don't you people understand that PTS = REPLICAS albiet HIGH QUALITY replicas, BUT STILL REPLICAS. It doesn't matter if they are licensed, they are still replicas.

 

I'm trying to explain the difference between PTS and Magpul, and if your comprehension skills are above that of a third grader you would know that i'm trying to say. PTS = REPLICA with ONE major difference, the PTS is made for AIRSOFT which means it can use lower quality materials, which should decrease its cost, but it doesn't. Probably because of what USCM said.

 

There is a difference between licensed product and licensed replica. Licensed product means it is made by a company and sold under a third party. Larue's UDE kit, is made by Magpul but it is then sold under the Larue name.

 

PTS, is based in HK which means there products are probably made somewhere in asia so essentially it is All China Made (ACM) sold under the name of Magpul, do you see the difference. PTS is NOT MAGPUL, why don't you understand that?

 

I'm not saying PTS is bad, i'm trying to help you understand that PTS IS NOT MAGUL. They may be licensed, but a Magpul CTR is not the same as a PTS CTR.

 

I underlined the important parts, so you would understand.

 

You guys seem to think that PTS exports REAL Magpul items and that they are the same company.

 

I'm tired of wasting my breath on this... So here it is ONE last time in lamen terms before I ban myself from this thread.

 

PTS = HIGH QUALITY REPLICA made in MADE IN CHINA at the cost the real thing.

 

 

 

 

[beretta]

Post of the DAY!

[Spooky]

First masada in France...

 

 

[watase]

I'm tired of wasting my breath on this... So here it is ONE last time in lamen terms before I ban myself from this thread.

 

PTS = HIGH QUALITY REPLICA made in MADE IN CHINA at the cost the real thing.

 

 

Seems you're probably leaving anyway, but I have to say this again, since maybe you dont really get it..

 

Authorized replica's are licensed. Licenses come at the expense (usually) of royalties. Now, if the real steel MBUS are $90, and the airsoft is $90 as well, then no, if I had the option I'd get the real steel version. Who here knows what Magpul's royalty fee is? Is it $1 a unit? $5? $30? The PTS MBUS might only cost say, $40 to make, but who knows, maybe Magpul is just crazy with the royalty fees. With the real steel versions, they probably know that they can make a unit that costs $80, sell it for $90 and still sell thousands and thousands and still make a good profit. Odd's are, that the airsoft versions won't sell as many, therefore making the price higher to get the same amount of profits (don't forget royalty fee's).

 

And a "High Quality Replica" can be made of the exact same materials as the real steel version, just manufactured somewhere that doesn't restrict there export. Besides, I don't think anyone was arguing about the fact they're replicas.

[uscmCorps]

<snip>

Then don't buy them. If you've ever been on real steel forums where Magpul has a presence, or attended SHOT Show, you will see that Magpul PTS is at their booth, behind the counter with the rest of the Magpul guys. Magpul by their own admittance, sees Magpul PTS as a sister company.

 

As someone living in the US, yes, it doesn't make a lot of sense for you to buy the majority of Magpul PTS' products. The same can not be said of pretty much any other country in the world due to ITAR restrictions.

 

While you've made it very clear that you feel that the materials used in a real CTR are different than that of the PTS Replica, you seemingly have not considered that just because the PTS replica is not made from the exact same polymer formula, that doesn't mean that it is inferior for our uses. Lot's of RS parts of different manufacturers are made from various different polymers. Magpul PTS' stuff is also made from a polymer. Big deal. Do we know for a fact that Magpul PTS used low grade and cheap polymer? No. So just because Magpul has devised a very specific polymer that's trade secreted for their products doesn't necessarily mean that Magpul PTS went with a run of the mill POS polymer. For all we know Magpul PTS could have chosen to use the absolute highest end polymer formula available to them on the commercial market. Did they? I don't know, and neither do any of you. So let's please move past the "Magpul PTS's materials are excrement" argument. They might be. They might not be. More importantly, for 99% of airsofters buying the Magpul PTS stuff, would they be any better off or benefit from using the real stuff? Probably not.

 

Another issue you and several others have not addressed is the issue of production quantities. Anyone who has ever dealt with mass produced manufacturing on any level will tell you, the more you make, the cheaper the unit cost. Magpul produces an insane amount of product. Magpul PTS produces a lot too... for an airsoft manufacturer. Magpul's customer base is pretty much anyone buying a gun in the US (at last count, the NRA has 4.3 MILLION members). Magpul PTS's customer base is anyone buying airsoft guns (if we number more than 150 thousand I'd be shocked). I don't know what the relative ratios of Magpul PMAGs to Magpul PTS PMAGs are... but I can guarantee you this: it isn't 1:1. I'll go even further out on the limb and say it isn't 1:1000. When you produce product in 100s of thousands at a time, your unit cost is going to be a lot cheaper than the Airsoft Counterpart who produces a few thousand every few months. That is an economic FACT. Please take the time to address this point as it has been constantly skipped over in your arguments.

 

Another thing I'd like to point out is your loose usage of the term ACM (All China Made). As someone who grew up in Hong Kong I'd like to point out that, however inconvenient it is for your argument, something made in China and something made in Hong Kong is very different. Yes, I realize to most of the world geographically it seems like the same thing. Well it isn't. Magpul PTS is based in Hong Kong. So is G&P, CA, and several other widely considered high end manufacturers. JG, DBoys, Cyma, A&K etc, are based in China. While most Hong Kong airsoft companies do outsource their work to China for mass production, they also often keep a much closer eye on the QC of their products (which I have seen first hand), when compared to the China Based companies who take a very care-free approach to the QC and the materials used as their main priority is to get the product out to the retailers and see an immediate return. Now does Magpul PTS outsource their mass production to China? I don't know. And unless you know them better than I do, I'm guessing you don't know either. But you're making a judgment call as if you do, which can be a problem when you try to pass off an argument as fact when it is actually conjecture.

 

And then there's also the all important point of royalties, as watase has reminded you of yet again. Nothing is free, and that includes licensing. That is especially the case when it comes to exclusive licensing as the licensee has to pay a premium on top of their regular royalties. This works out great for the licensor (Magpul) as they get more money and have more control over their company branding. For the licensee (Magpul PTS), it's good and bad. You can make products that no one else is allowed to make, but it costs you a lot more in royalties and in Magpul PTS's case, they're held to a higher standard than your run of the mill ACM manufacturer which means you have to spend more money ensuring it's done right.

 

While these arguments are sound, they don't really work for your argument, so I completely understand if you choose to ignore or glaze over them. I read your arguments, then re-read them again. I understand what you're trying to say and convey, the problem is that your perspective is a very narrow minded one riddled with holes worse than Swiss Cheese (nothing against the Swiss, I quite like the cheese... it's just very holey). But in the end you seem to have a strong focus on seeing things a particular way. That's okay. I'm just saying that through my research, contacts with vendors and manufacturers, and seeing a lot of this develop before my eyes first hand, I've come to a different conclusion. But we're all entitled to our opinions however much they differ. Such is life.

 

 

[kodiak22]

..........

 

 

man you always have the longest posts .

 

and after continuously(sp?) i have agree with what you and Watase are saying.

 

 

and appslapp as much as i dislike the acm masada......... it is nice looking.