Primaries, secondaries and sidearms...

[JimCanuck]

I was a paintballer now looking to get into airsoft, but because I am a hunter and I carry a M1A (Commercial M14 rifle), I don't think I'd carry 2 rifles around on any match.

 

But I get for airsoft its easier to consider it, mainly because your not carrying loaded magazines but magazines with little plastic BBs in them. Load your vest with real magazines loaded with ammunition, put in armor plates, then think if your willing to carry 2 rifles and a handgun. I'm going to say probably not.

 

Why do I mention this? Because airsofters like to talk about "milsim" and "realizism" but the 2 primary weapon idea seems counter productive if thouse 2 words are your goal.

 

But then again I am a paintballer what do I know.

 

Dimitri

[aliensexgangchildren]

i carry 3 weapons aswell...a KWA s-system as my primary, a TM spas 12 on a back scabbard as a secondary and a KSC mk23 as a sidearm.....i am thinking of replacing the spas with the new G&G mp5sd blowback when i get money to buy it

[Voodoo1]

I recently trialled running my MP9 as a back-up when using sniper/DMR. The theory was fine but having an extra weight strapped to my side and all the extra mags became too much to be fun. I prefer lighter-the-better loadouts so switched back to just the pistol.

 

I think at our sites there's no need for a one man army who can deal with all threats... team work is the key. If I'm sniping I'll be alongside someone else to deal with close in targets and if I'm just using the MP9 I'll call out targets for the snipers to deal with long range shots.

[Sgt.Griff]

I used to use dual MP5k's as a back up, they were the most cumbersome things ever to run around with holstered but so much fun for trench clearing lol.

[Basho]

This is a good debate as this is an issue that defines how you play your game. After many years of trial and error I have come to the following personal conclusions:

 

1. Dual pistols are very handy in CQB. Pistols are superior to rifles in CQB as range is not an issue, rather the focus is on being able to shoot faster and smoother than the OpFor. Also, pistols are quicker to aim and shoot than rifles.

 

2. In other environments a primary and secondary is all that is needed for a rifleman role. Obviously snipers, etc could require a different setup with a backup AEG (Mp5k for example) and a pistol. The reason for the backup in general is that AEG's go down, run out of ammo and stop working just like real guns. Being able to transition means that you can keep shooting when this happens, a vital skill.

 

3. Shotguns are rifles not pistols. The advantages of pistols are their size and ability to rapid fire . I cannot shoot my shotgun as fast no matter how hard I try. I carry my shotgun as a CQB primary, when the game is single shot only.

 

4. I always take 2 AEG's/shotgun and 2 pistols to a game. Guns stop working all the time. If not yours then one of your friends. being able to re-equip in the safezone is useful.

 

5. I play ammo limit games (usually 600 rounds). So, I gain nothing by carrying two AEG's into the field other than being bulkier. I am bulky enough as it is, so I actually try to slim down in size and weight, not add more.

 

6. I spend time and money on my guns and loadout. I spend even more on my skills and drills. Know your gun like an old friend. If I carried more, then this time would be divided and I would know each gun a little less.

 

This is how I feel. Subjective? Yes, of course.

 

Basho

[Brooxy]

At the moment it's rotated between the two guns I have - In the morning i'll take the MP5 A5 and leave the PDW in the safe zone as backup. Come afternoon I switch over.

 

Although later this week I should be picking up a Maruzen P99 to have as a sidearm

[Stealthbomber]

1. Dual pistols are very handy in CQB. Pistols are superior to rifles in CQB as range is not an issue, rather the focus is on being able to shoot faster and smoother than the OpFor. Also, pistols are quicker to aim and shoot than rifles.

Not too sure about this.

 

If you're wandering about with your rifle pointing at the floor like a limp *rickroll* then you deserve all you get.

If you have your gun shouldered as you make your way around it shouldn't take any more time to aim than a pistol.

CQB is about the only time that real military tactics cross over to airsoft and you don't see soldiers transitioning to a pistol before entering a building or wandering around Tikrit with dual M9s.

Obviously an SMG or carbine will be less cumbersome than a MBR but, beyond that, I think you'll just do best with whatever you're most comfortable with.

 

 

On topic, as I've said before, outside the whole leetdeltasocom world that some people inhabit I just take my rifle and, maybe, a pistol into a game.

If my gun dies on me I'll probably call myself out and take it back to the SZ to see what's wrong with it and then, if it can't be fixed, dump it there and re-enter the game with my pistol.

[ninja master of coffee]

I've tried (usually for a laugh) carrying two long guns, my experience is it doesn't really work. It weighs a lot more, carrying two sets of magazines is a pain and it's cumbersome. I do however pretty much always carry a side arm in addition to my rifle with between six and ten magazines depending on the game. I carry two spare mags for my pistol. Now part of it is that a GBB pistol is just fun to have but there's a practical side to it, if I'm caught on the hop during a reload I can pull a pistol faster then reload my rifle, they're handy in tight spaces and if you have to get an objective a pistol is far more preferable than a rifle as you can actually defend yourself reasonably well. As others have said a pistol really comes into it's own in close confines, it's far easier to manouver and aim than a long gun, the fact that it might not be full auto or as accurate over range as a rifle doesn't have much meaning at very close range, speed of target acquisition and trigger time is far more important than RoF.

 

One further point, being on a long defensive game and going down to just your pistol is awesomely tense, try it, the pistol will justify itself with only that.

[Talestar66]

At the moment me and a friend have been trying out using pistols only. I use a tm hi-capa with a tm detonics as back up. Its currently workign very well as logn as we dont get stuck in sustained firefights. It so much easier to move without my m16 and seem much easier to get a quick kill. Dont know what to do about winter tohugh :/

 

[Kraut]

... speed of target acquisition and trigger time is far more important than RoF.

...

Which is why you use a rifle, not a pistol.

 

My pistol is a secondary, purely. I bought it primarily so I can shoot within the minimum engagement range, where I can't shoot with my rifle and the enemy is dug in or whatever where a saftey kill won't cut it. However, the last skirmish I attended, my rifle died shortly into the game. I didn't have any spare rifles at the field, so I stripped my gear, tossed my three M9 PTP mags in my shirt pocket, and rocked the pistol. I quickly became the 'bait', drawing fire over and over, untill I did a massive flanking maneuver and came up behind the entire enemy team. Then I learned of the beauty of PTP pistols, taking out all but two of a 10 man team from behind, including some long-distance shots. Thank god I have M9 training or I would've missed every shot.

That said, pistols are horribly inaccurate in comparison to a rifle, in most cases. It's MUCH easier to quickly a acquire a target with something shouldered than a free-handed pistol (or even less, two pistols).

I tried two primaries, but good lord is that *suitcase* heavy, not to mention I got tangled up quickly, the secondary rifle kept sliding around, two different mag types, etc.

 

Of course, it's all in what YOU want to do. Me? Primary rifle, with a pistol for >20' engagements, unless primary goes down with no other options.

 

 

"Rifles are rifles and pistols are pistols. The only purpose of a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you should have never laid down."

[A Tobias]

i just received my kwa m11 ns2 to use as my cqb primary and secondary to my bar 10

its easily the most fun gun to shoot i have ever experienced!

[Seraphim989]

"Rifles are rifles and pistols are pistols. The only purpose of a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you should have never laid down."

 

An excellent quote. I may even sig it

[Basho]

Not too sure about this.

 

Well, your mileage may vary.

 

But it is vital, when considering 'cross over' of the Real Steal world and Airsoft, to consider your point in the right light. While soldiers in Iraq (probably) don't transition, I am not a solider; I am an airsofter and there is a few important points to keep in mind:

 

1. In CQB, weapon power and range doesn't matter as a hit is a hit whatever the power. In RS rifles are more powerful than pistols. This alone means that a solider will keep his rifle weapon up first so he may shoot through walls, armour etc.

 

2. In tight corridors and CQB style corners a rifle is often slower and more cumbersome to manoeuvre than a pistol. Important emphasis on the word often. There is no doubting this. If you know both weapon platforms well, you (like I) my find that the pistol enables targeting faster than an AEG.

 

3. A rifle, even on full auto, shoots in a single directional arc. If you ambush a number of Opfor, this arc of BB's must be traced across all opponents in the time it takes them to put a single BB on you. Dual pistols enables you to shoot two things at once. I am not saying that you need to be flawlessly accurate with dual pistols (see point 1), you just need to hit them. Therefore, you have what amounts to two arcs of BB's with which to take down the Opfor. In my experience, I have survived more times using this method than I have using the rifle method. I could recount many times that being able to step through a door and shoot two guys simultaneously won the day for Basho. I appreciate that this is not very "milsim" in approach and doesn't allow for the idea that you have flashbangs, or team mates, etc.

 

That's why this is a personal choice. In my last video I clearly lace up 8 guys in a single orgasmic burst of BB's using a single AEG rifle, so there is no perfectly solid rule here.

 

The only rule is this: All weapons and tactics require practice.

 

Basho

[JimCanuck]

The reason for the backup in general is that AEG's go down, run out of ammo and stop working just like real guns.

 

I disagree, a properly maintained rifle or shotgun or handgun for that matter will outlive the useful life of the user I never had any of my firearms fail me. Hence why its standard practice for snipers to carry their primary rifle and a pistol, not a rifle, a M4 and a pistol. If you don't believe me look it up in any current military manual on sniper tactics, the Snipers Observer has the M4 or similar for closer work.

 

JimCanuck

[fyurian]

main G36c

sec SL9 (for buggers that are to far away for my g36 or are in good cover)

and sidearm my silenced MK23 (for those sneaky surprizes that nobody want to have)

[T3CH]

I usually take a dual stainless hi-capa, AK47s, and either an MP5k or MP5SD6 as a backup in case my AK goes down (or if I just feel like a change of weapon). I only actually carry 2.

[Agent Hunk]

I disagree, a properly maintained rifle or shotgun or handgun for that matter will outlive the useful life of the user I never had any of my firearms fail me. Hence why its standard practice for snipers to carry their primary rifle and a pistol, not a rifle, a M4 and a pistol. If you don't believe me look it up in any current military manual on sniper tactics, the Snipers Observer has the M4 or similar for closer work.

 

JimCanuck

Alot of snipers I have seen both have carbines in addition to the sniper rifle.

[Skully]

I once took two M4s out, one in each hand both on full auto.

 

But I got confused when I saw an enemy and shot for too long and too high.

 

Luckily they had a facemask.

 

Primary only now though.

[Basho]

I disagree, a properly maintained rifle or shotgun or handgun for that matter will outlive the useful life of the user I never had any of my firearms fail me. Hence why its standard practice for snipers to carry their primary rifle and a pistol, not a rifle, a M4 and a pistol. If you don't believe me look it up in any current military manual on sniper tactics, the Snipers Observer has the M4 or similar for closer work.

 

JimCanuck

 

Are we even talking about the same thing? I am talking about airsoft mate, not what the military do with real steal weapons. I really think that real steal tactics and applications DO NOT cross over perfectly to airsoft and we shouldn't be obsessing about trying to squash such tactics into our sport.

 

For example, only last Saturday, I played in a game and got flanked, but the guy's pistol jammed and I shot him with my shotgun. Jamming, missfire, cycle-but-no-BB, etc happens all the time.

 

Another example, I keep my WA very clean and check its action, but it still failed on me in the field on saturday. So did DA1's, so did Trip's, so did Bill's. We are all experienced airsofters and know how to maintain our guns, but they do go wrong. That is why I carry two guns at all times.

 

I might add that the shotgun worked a charm!

 

 

[JimCanuck]

Are we even talking about the same thing?

 

I was referring to your comment at the end "just like real guns".

 

I can see why AEG's, GBB's, and the like (other then spring guns) would fail in the field, and their inability to be maintained as they were not designed for ease of maintenance. However I was disagreeing that firearms fail as often as people seem to think. The vast majority of firearms fail due to user ignorance or abuse not actual problems with the gun.

 

As for me I don't own any airsoft guns other then a clear plastic spring pistol all I own are firearms at this point. But that is because G&G has not introduced the transparent version of the FS51 rifles.

 

Dimitri

[adadqgg]

A reputable Comrade once said: a Makarov(he was referring to general sidearms though) is THE most reliable, accurate, and manuverable weapon...to shoot yourself with, other than that there are not much uses for a sidearm.

 

Following that Comrade's example, I leave my sidearm(a boxcannon) at home, in the drawer of my desk, next to my red book filled with progressive messages from Chairman Mao.

 

Because the fight against NATOsofters have been going well, I never had the chance to use my sidearm.

 

Keeping a accurate, reliable, clean primary is of the highest priority.

 

After proper works done to internals, even MPEG internals can last long.

 

Needless to say, I have a AKS-74N... so I never want to be touching anything else(except maybe a SVD Dragunov).

[L4byr1nth]

Are we even talking about the same thing? I am talking about airsoft mate, not what the military do with real steal weapons. I really think that real steal tactics and applications DO NOT cross over perfectly to airsoft and we shouldn't be obsessing about trying to squash such tactics into our sport.

 

*Sigh*

 

And you call yourself a writer?!

 

 

Ben.

[Basho]

*Sigh*

 

And you call yourself a writer?!

 

 

Ben.

 

/doh

 

I blame the auto correct on my iPhone (writing on a train into London)!

 

My most common typing mistake is actually 'from' and 'form'.

 

At GZ I didn't draw my pistol once in anger, whereas at The Academy it lived in my hand. So, it is not a hard and fast rule. Airsoft has no loadout rules, some airsofters don't believe in even 'winning' as this brings attitudes of competativeness that encourages cheating. If you can break the mold of loadouts and still beat a team of experienced players, who is to say what is best (gun)?

 

Basho

[The lolinator]

when sniping I carry around an L96 (soon to be replaced by an m40a1 ) and either a TM 1911 or a KSC USP .45

 

when using my m4, I take only my 1911 or USP

 

in my opinion, rifle + sidearm is all you need, having 2 rifles is just too much in my opinion and I use my pistol all the time because I use real caps, so if I need to reload and I have no support then I pull out my pistol and give myself enough time to reload (which is often because I don't speak spanish and all the other airsofters here only speak spanish )

[Adiventure]

when sniping I carry around an L96 (soon to be replaced by an m40a1 ) and either a TM 1911 or a KSC USP .45

 

when using my m4, I take only my 1911 or USP

 

in my opinion, rifle + sidearm is all you need, having 2 rifles is just too much in my opinion and I use my pistol all the time because I use real caps, so if I need to reload and I have no support then I pull out my pistol and give myself enough time to reload (which is often because I don't speak spanish and all the other airsofters here only speak spanish )

 

You live in Spain but don't speak Spanish? Would think trouble communicating in airsoft would be the least of your worries >.<

 

To the topic, I have almost exclusively used just my MEU and my G36 (when it's worked), and I've found that to be more than enough, however at my last game I tried out some shotguns (zombie game) and I've been thinking about keeping one on me "for close quarters".