frogfish Posted May 30, 2009 Report Share Posted May 30, 2009 I liked your last post better Eh I figured it might have been to inflammatory so I changed it. I'm all for arguments, but I don't want to totally ###### people off. I too would like to know what has to be done to make a WA work well, from some people it sounds as though on 134a it works no problem, but some need upgrade after upgrade just to get it to fire consistently. If it's cheaper to get a WE than an upgraded WA, after mags, then I'll get whatever is cheapest... Link to post Share on other sites
SDU_Phil Posted May 30, 2009 Report Share Posted May 30, 2009 Eh I figured it might have been to inflammatory so I changed it. I'm all for arguments, but I don't want to totally ###### people off. I too would like to know what has to be done to make a WA work well, from some people it sounds as though on 134a it works no problem, but some need upgrade after upgrade just to get it to fire consistently. If it's cheaper to get a WE than an upgraded WA, after mags, then I'll get whatever is cheapest... I believe that is because the majority of GBBr users DON'T use 134a. So they need to get aftermarket parts to make it propane friendly. What needs to be done to a WA will depend on that, what gas you want to use. If you want to use 134a I don't think there is anything you NEED to do to it, aside for maybe an NPAS to adjust fps. If you want to use propane, I believe the bare minimum would be an aftermarket hop up, followed by an aftermarket bolt catch. The bolt carrier will most likely eventually crack along the left side and need replacing too. That being said, that is for an authentic Western Arms M4. The AGM will depend on the quality of the materials used for the parts. Link to post Share on other sites
1st_shooter Posted May 30, 2009 Report Share Posted May 30, 2009 whats this about 061 & 062 that paul is on about? "becoz some reason, AGM wrongly send us all in 061 ( 26 May) , 062 have to come late on 29 May" im looking to order one but it would be nice to see a proper review Link to post Share on other sites
bbstriker Posted May 30, 2009 Report Share Posted May 30, 2009 This is a thread about the ACM M4. It's not a thread debating whe merits of each type of gun. If you DO want to discuss which one is best then make a thread about it but be prepared for it to get messy. Alternatively, if you ARE posting in this thread to make a point about the ACM M4 then please ask yourself why you're posting and try to make sure that you make your point clearly and in a courteous manner. Agreed. I think I was reacting to a few claims/assertions that didn't hold if you had used both rifles. Anyway. I'd geniunely like to know what needs to be upgraded (and how much it costs) on the AGM M4 GBB to bring up to the WE standard or perhaps more appropriately the G&P version of the WA. With AGM/WA mags at $18 each and the cost of the AGM rifle at bargain basement there must be potential here. I saw a youtube take-down of the AGM. It has an alloy bolt carrier and plastic bolt. The buffer tube seemed to be all plastic. My guess at upgrading would be: Steel Bolt carrier Brass or steel bolt- i.e. gas valve Metal / heavier buffer tube and stiffer recoil spring heavy duty/reinforced aluminium charging handle Steel bolt catch. Funnily enough on my WE today I swapped my steel charging handle for the stock aluminium handle. Its a hot day and the WE was bucking like hell and it broke the aluminum charging handle! The tip snapped off and got stuck in the breach. So this shows how important it is to have a strong charging handle. The real M4 actually uses an aluminium handle which is one of the reasons I swapped out the heavy steel handle- I'm a stickler for athenticity and I also wanted to reduce the weight of my rifle! But the steel one is back on now my aluminium one is broken. It would be interesting to find out which charging handle the G&P WA uses and whether the AGM used the same one. I think the best time to test the AGM and its limits is in summer when you'll get max performance from propane. If the answers to the above points exist and the cost is reasonable, I might place an order! Link to post Share on other sites
muckymick Posted May 30, 2009 Report Share Posted May 30, 2009 i was told by cobra airsoft their was a problem with the magazine and they were waiting for the manufacturer to replace and he could not tell me when this would happen then he then put the phone down on me which really got me mad so now i am waiting for a refund Link to post Share on other sites
tinydata Posted May 30, 2009 Report Share Posted May 30, 2009 The AGM looks pretty good to me. I'm getting one if I can't get a WA. Link to post Share on other sites
renegadecow Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 And the WA M4 has ALOT more kick than a we, the we cant realy compare to the realism and kick of a fully upgraded WA, sure the we is a good rifle stock but it just cant compare to the fully upgraded WA system and the internals are the most realistic BY FAR. Could you do a rough list as to what components require replacing to get the recoil up? I have a friend with a G&P WOC (#4 I think) which is essentially an upgraded WA and after a days worth of shooting we came to the same conclusion that both our rifles recoiled just as much as the other. edit: My above post sounds OT, but its also for the benefit of those already in possession of their AGM rifle and might want to put some upgrades in. Link to post Share on other sites
ThaFlash Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 My friend likes the recoil of the G&P WOC better than his WE. He has even got the heavier bolt and a bunch of other upgraded WE parts over the course of the last few months; both before and after he likes the G&P a bit better. He also likes the fps consistency of the G&P, he's been having some issues maintaining consistent FPS with his WE. I have a few upgrades in my G&P WOC but I would say that the only necessary upgrade is to buy the NPAS valve set which costs about $40, to adjust fps. I bought the RATech aluminum bolt, but that broke my alloy G&P bolt carrier, so I then bought the RATech steel bolt carrier, and then lightened it to weight as much as my stock setup did. One of my friends is using a bare stock WOC, but he has an occasional double feed due to the PPS; although with the hopup turned up he had no issues at OP Lion Claws VIII. I don't know what these AGM guns are going to offer. I'm not optimistic, but I am hopeful. I'd like to have a cheap backup GBB... Link to post Share on other sites
Stealthbomber Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 I don't know what these AGM guns are going to offer. I'm not optimistic, but I am hopeful. I'd like to have a cheap backup GBB... Indeed. Pure speculation but, if anything, I suspect the main problems with the ACM gun will be to do with longevity. Chinese manufacturers have learned how to copy things properly but I am convinced they still don't understand what they're actually copying half the time. As a result, I doubt they'd have the savvy to actually consider how much of a beating various parts take in a GBB rifle when choosing materials. It'll be built out of parts of sufficient quality to get it out the door, fire a couple of thousand shots and then, after that all bets are off. Even so, I think the main attraction of the ACM gun will be people who go into ownership with their eyes open. They'll be people, like myself, who buy one out of curiousity about the concept, who plan on skirmishing with it occasionally or who just want a more realistic weapon to play around with. I suspect the real story with the ACM M4 will only become apparent in a couple of months when owners begin to suffer failures and try to fit upgraded replacement parts designed for the WA M4. I wonder if there are any UK owners of a WA M4 who might be prepared to get together with an ACM M4 owner and have a session of swapping and changing stuff to see if all parts are compatible? Link to post Share on other sites
MDK_Marshal Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 Well, I know of a guy with a WA, at a local-ish site, if I can drag my WA along to him I should be able to swap some parts around and see what's what; unfortunately, due to being poor and knowing mainly poor students, I don't really know many people who can afford the WA... =/ Link to post Share on other sites
Stealthbomber Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 Well, I know of a guy with a WA, at a local-ish site, if I can drag my WA along to him I should be able to swap some parts around and see what's what; unfortunately, due to being poor and knowing mainly poor students, I don't really know many people who can afford the WA... =/ You're drunk, right? Link to post Share on other sites
RUSHER2 Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 Could you do a rough list as to what components require replacing to get the recoil up? I have a friend with a G&P WOC (#4 I think) which is essentially an upgraded WA and after a days worth of shooting we came to the same conclusion that both our rifles recoiled just as much as the other. edit: My above post sounds OT, but its also for the benefit of those already in possession of their AGM rifle and might want to put some upgrades in. Try the Airsoft Surgeon 140% Recoil Spring kit. Bunch of different parts my father has in his fully upgraded western arms this was all like 2 weeks after the western arms came out and it was fully finished. so i forgot was all in there. mixture of RA-TECH and G&P parts and Airsoft surgeon Link to post Share on other sites
ThaFlash Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 LOL. A stronger recoil spring decreases the rearward speed of the bolt carrier. Just because it's called a recoil spring doesn't mean in increases recoil. Link to post Share on other sites
RUSHER2 Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 LOL. A stronger recoil spring decreases the rearward speed of the bolt carrier. Just because it's called a recoil spring doesn't mean in increases recoil. Well everything on the Western arms i have shot nothing is stock, everything is upgraded. So im not fully sure. Ive shot both a WE and a WA on the same day just minutes apart and it wasnt close at all you could just tell the WE was much weaker. Link to post Share on other sites
ThaFlash Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 So you change your answer from just a recoil spring to a recoil spring and a bunch of different parts. Link to post Share on other sites
RUSHER2 Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 So you change your answer from just a recoil spring to a recoil spring and a bunch of different parts. Maybe if you could read correctly EVERYTHING WAS changed. On another note, im finished talking about we and wa guns this is an agm forum. Mine will be here on monday will post tons of pics and compatability with wa parts and mags and such. Link to post Share on other sites
uscmCorps Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 Maybe if you could read correctly EVERYTHING WAS changed. I think the point TheFlash was trying to make was that renegadecow asked clearly what parts needed to be changed in order to increase recoil. To which your response was to use an "Airsoft Surgeon 140% Recoil Spring kit" and a "bunch of different parts". It's common knowledge that the 140% recoil spring has caused more problems in the WA system than actually improving the performance of the gun. So suggesting that is the first alarm bell. Then there's also the fact that in a WA M4, a stronger spring reduces felt recoil which is the complete opposite effect that renegadecow was asking for. The suggestion of the 140% recoil spring was then followed up by "you need to fully upgrade the gun but I won't specify which parts". I'm paraphrasing of course, but that's basically what was implied ... none of which actually answers the question renegadecow originally asked which was, how do you increase the felt recoil in the WA system? The point is, too many people offer their opinion about buying part X in order to achieve a certain result, when in fact they're simply guessing and their statements are not factually back up. This is bad, because if the wrong information gets continually spread around by people thinking it's true, that undermines the ability for the real facts to come to light and actually help people. As for your soon to arrive AGM M4, I look forward to hearing your cursory impression of it. Just please give details, rather than vague descriptions. Link to post Share on other sites
michaelmike Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 I think the point TheFlash was trying to make was that renegadecow asked clearly what parts needed to be changed in order to increase recoil. To which your response was to use an "Airsoft Surgeon 140% Recoil Spring kit" and a "bunch of different parts". It's common knowledge that the 140% recoil spring has caused more problems in the WA system than actually improving the performance of the gun. So suggesting that is the first alarm bell. Then there's also the fact that in a WA M4, a stronger spring reduces felt recoil which is the complete opposite effect that renegadecow was asking for. The suggestion of the 140% recoil spring was then followed up by "you need to fully upgrade the gun but I won't specify which parts". I'm paraphrasing of course, but that's basically what was implied ... none of which actually answers the question renegadecow originally asked which was, how do you increase the felt recoil in the WA system? The point is, too many people offer their opinion about buying part X in order to achieve a certain result, when in fact they're simply guessing and their statements are not factually back up. This is bad, because if the wrong information gets continually spread around by people thinking it's true, that undermines the ability for the real facts to come to light and actually help people. As for your soon to arrive AGM M4, I look forward to hearing your cursory impression of it. Just please give details, rather than vague descriptions. I remembered several member of this forum memtioned Monday as the delivery date of their AGM GBBs,well,looks like the fog of AGM will soon started to lift, even if it is by so little, it's lifting,hopefully i myself will able to reach a informed decision when it's my time to order my first GBB rifle and join the Gas club. Here,the very least, the club hold no interest for a average spray n' pray hi-cap-er. Link to post Share on other sites
michaelmike Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 I think the point TheFlash was trying to make was that renegadecow asked clearly what parts needed to be changed in order to increase recoil. To which your response was to use an "Airsoft Surgeon 140% Recoil Spring kit" and a "bunch of different parts". It's common knowledge that the 140% recoil spring has caused more problems in the WA system than actually improving the performance of the gun. So suggesting that is the first alarm bell. Then there's also the fact that in a WA M4, a stronger spring reduces felt recoil which is the complete opposite effect that renegadecow was asking for. The suggestion of the 140% recoil spring was then followed up by "you need to fully upgrade the gun but I won't specify which parts". I'm paraphrasing of course, but that's basically what was implied ... none of which actually answers the question renegadecow originally asked which was, how do you increase the felt recoil in the WA system? The point is, too many people offer their opinion about buying part X in order to achieve a certain result, when in fact they're simply guessing and their statements are not factually back up. This is bad, because if the wrong information gets continually spread around by people thinking it's true, that undermines the ability for the real facts to come to light and actually help people. As for your soon to arrive AGM M4, I look forward to hearing your cursory impression of it. Just please give details, rather than vague descriptions. I remembered several member of this forum memtioned Monday as the delivery date of their AGM GBBs,well,looks like the fog of AGM will soon started to lift, even if it is by so little, it's lifting,hopefully i myself will able to reach a informed decision when it's my time to order my first GBB rifle and join the Gas club. Here,the very least, the club hold no interest for a average spray n' pray hi-cap-er. Link to post Share on other sites
michaelmike Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 I think the point TheFlash was trying to make was that renegadecow asked clearly what parts needed to be changed in order to increase recoil. To which your response was to use an "Airsoft Surgeon 140% Recoil Spring kit" and a "bunch of different parts". It's common knowledge that the 140% recoil spring has caused more problems in the WA system than actually improving the performance of the gun. So suggesting that is the first alarm bell. Then there's also the fact that in a WA M4, a stronger spring reduces felt recoil which is the complete opposite effect that renegadecow was asking for. The suggestion of the 140% recoil spring was then followed up by "you need to fully upgrade the gun but I won't specify which parts". I'm paraphrasing of course, but that's basically what was implied ... none of which actually answers the question renegadecow originally asked which was, how do you increase the felt recoil in the WA system? The point is, too many people offer their opinion about buying part X in order to achieve a certain result, when in fact they're simply guessing and their statements are not factually back up. This is bad, because if the wrong information gets continually spread around by people thinking it's true, that undermines the ability for the real facts to come to light and actually help people. As for your soon to arrive AGM M4, I look forward to hearing your cursory impression of it. Just please give details, rather than vague descriptions. I remembered several member of this forum memtioned Monday as the delivery date of their AGM GBBs,well,looks like the fog of AGM will soon started to lift, even if it is by so little, it's lifting,hopefully i myself will able to reach a informed decision when it's my time to order my first GBB rifle and join the Gas club. Here,the very least, the club hold no interest for a average spray n' pray hi-cap-er. Link to post Share on other sites
Stealthbomber Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 Keep stabbing at that "reply" button. You know it makes sense! Link to post Share on other sites
Hite Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 Would anyone trust the AGM made mags? Surely if anything needs to made strong it is the mags, so would you risk the possible safety implications for cheap mags, or would you buy premium for good solid mags? Link to post Share on other sites
muckymick Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 Would anyone trust the AGM made mags? Surely if anything needs to made strong it is the mags, so would you risk the possible safety implications for cheap mags, or would you buy premium for good solid mags? Your assuming that all the other manufactures are not over charging for their mag's. It is possible that this is what the WA mag's should have cost before every retailer put their mark up on what was a new stlye of gas gun and magazine. Link to post Share on other sites
Unit 318 Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 Would anyone trust the AGM made mags? Surely if anything needs to made strong it is the mags, so would you risk the possible safety implications for cheap mags, or would you buy premium for good solid mags? AGM isn't as shoddy as everyone thinks. Link to post Share on other sites
slu Posted June 1, 2009 Report Share Posted June 1, 2009 AGM isn't as shoddy as everyone thinks. Let's all hope that's true, because $18 mags would be great. It just seems totally unrealistic. Link to post Share on other sites
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